Putting - DO NOT Accelerate Through the Ball

[iacas]

36 minutes ago, Killa said:

What I meant by that is that I have a problem using this technique (that I understood poorly in the first place) to generate distance. Especially on the slower greens I'm used to. On the fast ones from yesterday getting distance wasn't a problem.

Like I said… your tempo is probably too slow if you can't get a 30-footer to the hole on slow greens.

36 minutes ago, Killa said:

Well it depends. Well you did have a 38 there :) Thing is that I'm not used to those greens. When I play another course over here that has slower greens I never putt more than 18 times for 9 holes. 

And as I've said I 3 putted the first 2 holes, then when I got a bit more used to the greens I 3 putted 3 times in the next 15... I know it's not anywhere perfect or very good but at this point my end score consists of about 1/3 putting instead of 1/2.

You're not hitting a lot of greens, so even two- and three-putting that often is not a great sign. You're not often putting from 40 feet away like some people who hit more greens. You're putting after a chip or a pitch shot more often, and those tend to be shorter putts.

Start a Member Swing topic or post video of yourself hitting long putts to it if you have one already.

[Killa]

20 hours ago, iacas said:

Like I said… your tempo is probably too slow if you can't get a 30-footer to the hole on slow greens.

You're not hitting a lot of greens, so even two- and three-putting that often is not a great sign. You're not often putting from 40 feet away like some people who hit more greens. You're putting after a chip or a pitch shot more often, and those tend to be shorter putts.

Start a Member Swing topic or post video of yourself hitting long putts to it if you have one already.

Yep I realized that after your first reply. I was only using gravity instead of using a rhythm - completely misunderstood the point of the first post in this topic.

 

I have a member swing topic but no putting videos yet. Will try to add them as soon as I can, but I need to work on it first, changing the technique again. 

[BogeySwine]

I have followed this thread occasionally over the past few months and started to incorporate the pendulum swing in my putting. I have begun to have excellent results on putts from eight feet on out to thirty feet. Most come up to within four feet of the hole. When I have a first or second putt from six or seven feet though I have been experiencing major problems. My normal miss on breaking putts from these distances is a weak putt that breaks below the hole. I would guess that I need more work on the practice greens to get onto the habit of stroking the putts hard enough to remove some of the break! I am open to any suggestions from someone who has worked through this problem before. Thanks

[iacas]

53 minutes ago, BogeySwine said:

I have followed this thread occasionally over the past few months and started to incorporate the pendulum swing in my putting. I have begun to have excellent results on putts from eight feet on out to thirty feet. Most come up to within four feet of the hole. When I have a first or second putt from six or seven feet though I have been experiencing major problems. My normal miss on breaking putts from these distances is a weak putt that breaks below the hole. I would guess that I need more work on the practice greens to get onto the habit of stroking the putts hard enough to remove some of the break! I am open to any suggestions from someone who has worked through this problem before. Thanks

You could also just… play more break.

After all…

 

Check that topic out.

[BogeySwine]

"Putting Capture Speed"   Thank you, a very interesting read! I'm playing in the morning so I'll try a few 5' breaking putts on the practice green. I'll aim a bit high side and try to keep it down to 6"-12" past the hole. Thanks for all the great information on this site!

[Killa]

I was working on my putting a bit (usually it's just before playing a round and after a round :) ) and I have seen some improvement. I am now putting with a pendulum stroke. I try to keep the length of the back and downstroke the same. 

I was also using a metronome to help with rhythm. But I was wondering what a good setting on a metronome would be - currently I had it set to 76 (read somewhere in some topic that that's about where Spieths rhythm is). Is this too fast/too slow? 

[DaveP043]

28 minutes ago, Killa said:

I was also using a metronome to help with rhythm. But I was wondering what a good setting on a metronome would be - currently I had it set to 76 (read somewhere in some topic that that's about where Spieths rhythm is). Is this too fast/too slow? 

I think you'll find that putting tempo is a personal choice.  You could try to compare Ben Crenshaw with Brand Snedeker, one is slower, one is faster, but they're both pretty decent.  

[iacas]

6 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I think you'll find that putting tempo is a personal choice.  You could try to compare Ben Crenshaw with Brand Snedeker, one is slower, one is faster, but they're both pretty decent.  

Yes.

And… most people like between 70 and 80, FWIW.

[BogeySwine]

Busy this week! Tuesday's round went well as I actually made two breaking putts of five or six feet. The Putting Capture Speed thread was a good read and I will continue to work on that this season. I have been practicing my chipping every other day for the past few weeks and can now incorporate the new putting practice for capture speed at the same time. I have lost about 15 yards with the driver the past few years but the short game practice may help me stay in the 80's for a while longer. Thanks again for the Putting Capture Speed thread!

[dchoye]

With a hybrid and a 6 iron just off the green been using this "decell " tip and seem to be able to putt really well and hole some.  Works particularly well if above hole and judging speed to be critical not to overshoot the hole 

[zipazoid]

I just read this, and it's really good...the graph hits home on showing why a bad stroke is bad & a good stroke is good.

I've never been one to think 'accelerate through' the ball. My stroke is very pendulum & I realized decades ago that to hit the putt further, just lengthen the backswing & keep the same rhythm. In other words, the length of the backswing determines how far you want to hit the putt...same stroke the rest of the way (same rhythm) - no increased speed into the ball. The lengthened backswing will provide the increased speed needed to make the ball go farther. 

I have an old friend who is a pro in NE Ohio ( @iacas - maybe you know him - Buzz DiSalvo) - we played high school golf together & he was always a superior ball striker to me (not even close, lol), but his main weakness was putting. He would hit 16 greens & shoot 73. Meanwhile I was hitting like 8 & shooting 75. Anyway, to this day he thinks I'm a great putter...I'm not but I let him think that I am, heh.

A couple of years back we played. He's in his 50s now & still hits the ball great. He uses this very heavy putter, and when we got to the first green, he started pumping me, 'Jer give me a putting lesson...I can't make anything.' I said lemme see your stroke - 5 footers were fine. 10 footers were fine. We got to 20 feet & he was taking it back almost the same distance as a 10 footer & accelerating thru the ball. I asked him why he was doing that. "It's a longer putt" he said. I just said, increase the length of your backswing...keep everything else the same.

A-hole started making everything & took 20 bucks from me.

[Ernest Jones]

Between this thread and getting properly fitted (thanks a million Erik) and aimpoint, my putting is world class. Multiple times per round I get the "Holy Shit, nice putt!" If I can ever figure out my full swing I'd be scratch without a doubt. 

[parman]

We were told to accelerate through putting. Now they say not to accelerate. How do we know they are right this time and will not come up with another way of putting? I was told years ago to stop movingly hips forward. Now they say you should move your hips forward. I have no complaints on my putting so I ignore these types of advice. Practice works better than these tips IMHO. Putting is especially individual and some of the greatest putters did it all wrong according to the experts. 

[iacas]

6 hours ago, parman said:

We were told to accelerate through putting. Now they say not to accelerate. How do we know they are right this time and will not come up with another way of putting?

Read the science behind it. It should make sense.

6 hours ago, parman said:

I have no complaints on my putting so I ignore these types of advice. Practice works better than these tips IMHO. Putting is especially individual and some of the greatest putters did it all wrong according to the experts. 

I disagree.

I'd wager that I'm a much better putter than you… and I almost never practice, because I do these things properly.

[parman]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

Read the science behind it. It should make sense.

I disagree.

I'd wager that I'm a much better putter than you… and I almost never practice, because I do these things properly.

Sure, whatever you say. I see you are the big kahuna here so you cannot be wrong. BTW, I average 1.7 putts per round and you?

Here are some of the best putters of all time. Players like Aoki Isao did NONE of the the things you mentioned and was the #1 putter on the Senior Tour for years. Are you going to tell him he did it all wrong?

George Lowe Jr :

Stroke analysis: Low felt that the best way to get a true roll was to swing the putter from inside-out. To do this, he set the ball on the heel of his putter at address and placed his weight on his left heel, forcing his stroke to pivot around his left leg, thumb and shoulder.

Loren Roberts or the Boss of Moss: 

Stroke analysis: If you catch a Champions Tour event where Roberts is playing with Dave Stockton, you'll be struck by the similarities in their strokes, and how they move with the same slow tempo on the greens. Roberts has a great visual if you're struggling with your putting: Your puttershaft is a pencil, and all you're trying to do is draw a line on the green to your target.

Dave Stockton Jr:

Stroke analysis: Stockton brought the club back close to his body on his backstroke, then lead with the handle through the ball and kept his left elbow close to his side so he wouldn't miss right.

Bobby Jones:

Stroke analysis: The interesting thing is that Jones didn't follow a strict routine or style ever time. Since every putt offered a different challenge, Jones did what felt good for each particular situation. He putted very similarly to the way Ben Crenshaw putts. They both make the same miniature full-swing stroke open the door, close the door.

Billy Casper: 

Stroke analysis: Casper used his left wrist as a hinge. He swung his putter straight back and then just rapped the ball. He pinned his upper arms to his body to eliminate any extra movement.

Brad Faxton:

Stroke analysis: Faxon sets up with his right side ultra low and with his head angled to the right. It's not what you would teach, but it's perfect for him. He's very natural and target-oriented. When he putts it looks like he's shooting free throws.

Bobby Locke:

 Stroke analysis: Locke putted like he swung his irons and woods, from in-to-out (he played a significant draw off the tee and from the fairway). He paired his inside-out stroke with a shut putterface to place hook spin on the ball. His stroke fit the greens he grew up on in South Africa, which were very grainy.

Ben Crenshaw:

Stroke analysis: I've been fortunate to watch Crenshaw putt many times in person, during both practice and play. Yes, he's smooth, but what's really interesting is that he putts like he's attempting a miniature chip shot. If you fret over your mechanics, you might want to look at your stroke like Crenshaw does instead of trying to follow a robotic sequence of moves.

Jack Nicholas:

Stroke analysis: Nicklaus never looked very comfortable when he putted, with his stocky frame bunched up in his familiar crouch. But he had a very repeatable stroke. He kept his head very still, and locked his left arm and shoulder in place, then simply pushed the ball to the hole with his right palm and forearm.

Tiger Woods:

Stroke analysis: Woods isn't as technical as some other players, but you wouldn't know it by his putting. His setup is fundamentally perfect with everything square, especially his forearms and the puttershaft it looks like they're the same line. I'm sure he practices this a lot. When your setup is this good, you're going to make a lot of putts. And when you combine it with an equally sound stroke (he moves through the ball like it's invisible), you make a lot of history.

[saevel25]

None of the analysis you posted mentioned anything about accelerating through the putt. How is your post relevant to this thread?

[DaveP043]

17 hours ago, parman said:

We were told to accelerate through putting. Now they say not to accelerate. How do we know they are right this time and will not come up with another way of putting?

The thing is, we were told that we should FEEL like we were accelerating through the ball when putting, and we didn't have the kind of data that actually showed what good putters were actually doing.  Many great players will tell you that they feel one thing during a swing, when good video shows them doing something different.  Feel isn't real.   In my experience, a large percentage, perhaps most, of poor putters consistently decelerate through the ball.  For those players.  For these players, the FEEL of accelerating is almost certainly the best way to get them to make a proper stroke.  Almost every correction to a golf swing involves the FEEL of over-correcting, and this is no different.

7 hours ago, saevel25 said:

None of the analysis you posted mentioned anything about accelerating through the putt. How is your post relevant to this thread?

I agree, none of your descriptions mention acceleration.  Its only my guess, but if we were to find good slo-mo video of these players, we'd find that most of them do exactly what @iacas suggests.

[iacas]

19 hours ago, parman said:

Sure, whatever you say. I see you are the big kahuna here so you cannot be wrong. BTW, I average 1.7 putts per round and you?

Well, admittedly, I can't beat 1.7 putts per round… you must sure chip in a lot.  Assuming you meant putts per green, that number lacks context. If as a 9.3 index you're chipping to the vast majority of the holes you play because you missed the GIR, it's easier to have a lower putts per green number than if you're hitting the green and leaving yourself 20-40' most of the time, as I am. 1.7 is 30.6 putts per round, and despite hitting more greens than you… I'm at about the same number, while averaging 68% GIR to your, oh, 25-30% or so.

Look, I'm perfectly happy to discuss things, but they have to be actual discussions, not just you saying things like "whatever you say, doooood," @parman.

19 hours ago, parman said:

Here are some of the best putters of all time. Players like Aoki Isao did NONE of the the things you mentioned and was the #1 putter on the Senior Tour for years. Are you going to tell him he did it all wrong?

None of the things you posted, as others have pointed out, have anything to do with acceleration.

Here's the SAM PuttLab Dynamics section for some guy named "Tiger Woods." Many consider him a decent putter.

Notice anything like what I've talked about here in this topic?

I have the SAM PuttLab reports for a number of other PGA Tour players, as well, including Loren Roberts and a couple of other "great putters." They all exhibit little to no acceleration through impact.

Also… you can't compare putters from the 1930s or even the 1950s. Greens were really slow back then. Heck, watch the putting strokes from the 1960 Masters:

You couldn't putt Augusta National or any PGA Tour stop today like that. You can't putt most of your typical courses like that, either. Putting strokes may have changed from the 30s to the 50s, so I don't know that what George Low says is particularly relevant.

I'm always more interested in what the greats actually do.