Jump to content
IGNORED

Putting - DO NOT Accelerate Through the Ball


iacas

Recommended Posts

190702_gca_lanyi_accelerate_putts_062819

Golf Channel Academy lead coach Sean Lanyi uses analytics to show how accelerating on a putting stroke can...

Uses analytics to show how accelerating through the putt will keep the putter face ‘remarkably square.’ His demonstration shows absolutely nothing except that he’s accelerating through his putts. Total ‘McLesson’ that has zero value. 

:ping: G25 Driver Stiff :ping: G20 3W, 5W :ping: S55 4-W (aerotech steel fiber 110g shafts) :ping: Tour Wedges 50*, 54*, 58* :nike: Method Putter Floating clubs: :edel: 54* trapper wedge

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • 3 weeks later...
On 7/3/2019 at 1:37 AM, Vinsk said:
190702_gca_lanyi_accelerate_putts_062819

Golf Channel Academy lead coach Sean Lanyi uses analytics to show how accelerating on a putting stroke can...

Uses analytics to show how accelerating through the putt will keep the putter face ‘remarkably square.’ His demonstration shows absolutely nothing except that he’s accelerating through his putts. Total ‘McLesson’ that has zero value. 

What I have noticed when I "accelerate" through my putts is that I pull them! And the reason that I accelerate is because I haven't taken a deep enough backstroke. Your body panics, since it instinctively "knows" what you didn't do and seeks to make up for it. 

I read this thread for the first time last year, and have been working on it ever since. I'm 66 and putt better now than I did in my 20's! I'm putting 30-40 footers within inches of the cup! This method is a Godsend. Study it, practice it, employ it! 

My golf buddy's are constantly commenting about how well I putt now. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • 6 months later...

Ok so I’ve been thinking about this thread for a while now. And I don’t really get it. 
 

As I’ve mentioned on another thread I’ve been working on my tempo getting it close to 2:1 on backswing:downswing.

 

And I don’t see how you are just “swinging a pendulum” and getting anything that isn’t close to a 1:1 ratio?  Especially if you have a short backstroke time like 600ms. I mean you could really slow down the backstroke to give gravity the time to speed it up but it just feels like there is no way that’s happening. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Moderator
3 hours ago, Killa said:

Ok so I’ve been thinking about this thread for a while now. And I don’t really get it. 
 

As I’ve mentioned on another thread I’ve been working on my tempo getting it close to 2:1 on backswing:downswing.

 

And I don’t see how you are just “swinging a pendulum” and getting anything that isn’t close to a 1:1 ratio?  Especially if you have a short backstroke time like 600ms. I mean you could really slow down the backstroke to give gravity the time to speed it up but it just feels like there is no way that’s happening. 

In a pendulum, you start the swing in a high position and let gravity move it back and forth. The period of the arc will be the same in both directions.

In a putt, you are controlling the first swing arc from the bottom, then letting gravity and some of your arm power move the putter on the downstroke. The period of the downswing will be different from the backswing that way. You get to control the ratio.

Scott

Titleist, Edel, Scotty Cameron Putter, Snell - AimPoint - Evolvr - MirrorVision

My Swing Thread

boogielicious - Adjective describing the perfect surf wave

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Administrator
3 hours ago, Killa said:

Ok so I’ve been thinking about this thread for a while now. And I don’t really get it. 

As I’ve mentioned on another thread I’ve been working on my tempo getting it close to 2:1 on backswing:downswing.

And I don’t see how you are just “swinging a pendulum” and getting anything that isn’t close to a 1:1 ratio?  Especially if you have a short backstroke time like 600ms. I mean you could really slow down the backstroke to give gravity the time to speed it up but it just feels like there is no way that’s happening. 

In addition to what Scott said, you're starting from the bottom of the swing, and at a dead stop, while on the downswing, you are not swinging through to a dead stop (unless you measure all the way to the follow-through).

In other words:

Backswing:

  • Accelerate from dead stop
  • Reach peak speed (which will be lower than on the downswing)
  • Decelerate

Downswing:

  • Acclerate
  • Reach peak speed (higher than the backswing)

That's it. The follow-through gets the "Decelerate" phase, mostly.

In a pendulum, the backswing would be 1:1 as the downswing, but both would either be starting or ending in the same phase: decelerating to a stop, or accelerating to impact.

100 bpm is really probably too fast for you, @Killa.

  • Thumbs Up 1

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

3 hours ago, iacas said:

In addition to what Scott said, you're starting from the bottom of the swing, and at a dead stop, while on the downswing, you are not swinging through to a dead stop (unless you measure all the way to the follow-through).

In other words:

Backswing:

  • Accelerate from dead stop
  • Reach peak speed (which will be lower than on the downswing)
  • Decelerate

Downswing:

  • Acclerate
  • Reach peak speed (higher than the backswing)

That's it. The follow-through gets the "Decelerate" phase, mostly.

In a pendulum, the backswing would be 1:1 as the downswing, but both would either be starting or ending in the same phase: decelerating to a stop, or accelerating to impact.

100 bpm is really probably too fast for you, @Killa.

Yes could be. I will try to slow down to 90 and 80 bpm. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

On 2/8/2020 at 1:36 PM, iacas said:

In addition to what Scott said, you're starting from the bottom of the swing, and at a dead stop, while on the downswing, you are not swinging through to a dead stop (unless you measure all the way to the follow-through).

In other words:

Backswing:

  • Accelerate from dead stop
  • Reach peak speed (which will be lower than on the downswing)
  • Decelerate

Downswing:

  • Acclerate
  • Reach peak speed (higher than the backswing)

That's it. The follow-through gets the "Decelerate" phase, mostly.

In a pendulum, the backswing would be 1:1 as the downswing, but both would either be starting or ending in the same phase: decelerating to a stop, or accelerating to impact.

100 bpm is really probably too fast for you, @Killa.

Ok so I’ve tried it a bit. And the thing is that my putting mat is a bit slow, but not much slower than the courses I mostly play, and it’s 6’ long ending uphill so it plays probably about 8’. So if I want o putt it with a pendulum stroke I need to take the club back almost 2’ to get it to a hole. I can’t imagine what I’d have to do on a 30’ putt. A 1/2 swing almost??

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Administrator
6 minutes ago, Killa said:

Ok so I’ve tried it a bit. And the thing is that my putting mat is a bit slow, but not much slower than the courses I mostly play, and it’s 6’ long ending uphill so it plays probably about 8’. So if I want o putt it with a pendulum stroke I need to take the club back almost 2’ to get it to a hole. I can’t imagine what I’d have to do on a 30’ putt. A 1/2 swing almost??

It's exponential.

You have to take it back 2' to send it about 9'?

That feels crazy long/slow.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

On 2/9/2020 at 8:41 PM, iacas said:

It's exponential.

You have to take it back 2' to send it about 9'?

That feels crazy long/slow.

I might have exaggerated a bit but it’s definitely more than a foot. But that aside, I really don’t get how putting with gravity is supposed to work. 
 

If I understand correctly then we want to putt with a rhythm and that rhythm should be around 2:1 (it doesn’t actually matter for the point I’m trying to make). And then we also want to be putting with a tempo, so let’s say a 500ms backswing and 250ms downswing for arguments sake or somewhere in the 80 BPM range (didn’t calculate sorry).  So the only variable in our putting stroke should be the backswing and follow through lengths. And if we let gravity take the putter head on the downswing, we are talking about a simple pendulum. When we start talking about that then the backswing tempo has 0 influence on the downswing tempo. The downswing time depends (simplified) only on the pendulum length and backstroke length (let’s say we are in a vacuum). So now if we say we want a 1/2” backstroke that will give us a 500ms backswing and 250ms backswing with the ideal 2:1 ratio. Now we do the same 500ms backswing to keep the BPM the same but the downswing time changes significantly. It’s not twice as long but the ratio probably drops to 1,5:1, and will eventually drop to 1:1 if the backswing is long enough. 
 

Maybe I’m overthinking it but these three things just don’t add up. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Administrator
55 minutes ago, Killa said:

I might have exaggerated a bit but it’s definitely more than a foot. But that aside, I really don’t get how putting with gravity is supposed to work.

We don't actually putt with "gravity" alone.

We need to learn to fire our muscles LIKE it's gravity, which would produce a very clear and simple pendulum-like motion (acceleration and deceleration) curve.


This should be eye-opening to you, so if it's not, re-read it a bunch.

I see where you got off-track, and it's in giving way too much weight to not using your muscles, and actually relying on gravity to drop the putter head. That's not what you should be aiming to do.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

35 minutes ago, iacas said:

We don't actually putt with "gravity" alone.

We need to learn to fire our muscles LIKE it's gravity, which would produce a very clear and simple pendulum-like motion (acceleration and deceleration) curve.


This should be eye-opening to you, so if it's not, re-read it a bunch.

I see where you got off-track, and it's in giving way too much weight to not using your muscles, and actually relying on gravity to drop the putter head. That's not what you should be aiming to do.

 

Thanks for the insight. Yes before I reread this thread I actually thought kinda along the lines of what you wrote. But this topic threw me completely off track by mentioning gravity 🙂. So just to recap and to make sure I'm back on the right track - the point is to get the feel of a smooth stroke that feels like it's a pendulum but while we do use our muscles to get the pendulum to our desired rhythm. We don't want to strike at the ball but rather just help the club to get to the right speed just before impact. The constant tempo and rhythm combined with different backstroke lengths help us develop the best length control. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Administrator
5 minutes ago, Killa said:

Thanks for the insight. Yes before I reread this thread I actually thought kinda along the lines of what you wrote. But this topic threw me completely off track by mentioning gravity 🙂

Yeah, you misread the "gravity" stuff. I went back and looked, and it was a feeling that many students had given that they've spent their lives accelerating well past impact.

The rest of what you wrote is pretty accurate.

  • Like 1

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • 2 weeks later...
  • 8 months later...
  • Administrator

Brandt Snedeker "pops" the ball… but still doesn't accelerate. He ever so slightly decelerates. His graphs are very "squished" left-to-right, but they look like the "good" to "great" graphs otherwise.

Brandt2.jpgBrandt.jpg

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

On 2/12/2020 at 3:06 PM, iacas said:

We don't actually putt with "gravity" alone.

We need to learn to fire our muscles LIKE it's gravity, which would produce a very clear and simple pendulum-like motion (acceleration and deceleration) curve.

Late to this party, but this makes the most sense to me. Putter should be going fastest at impact or slightly after (3" past at max).

I may take video of my putting stroke the next time out on the practice green and post it here and cross post to my swing thread, even though it may not completely belong there.

I have always felt that I have had good speed control on putts, even if my read and bead may not always be up to the same quality. Putting always as reminded me of playing pool, which is something that I do at a much higher level than my golf game. I think it would be interesting to have a video in slo-mo with some sort of measuring stick and time bar to show what is going on with my own stroke.

  • :titleist: 917 D2 9.5o EvenFlow blue shaft    :titleist: 917 F2 15o EvenFlow blue shaft    
  • :titleist: 818 H2 19o EvenFlow blue shaft 
  • :titleist: 712 AP2 4-PW
  • :vokey: 52/8o SM6 RAW    56/14o SM6 Chrome      60/4o SM6 Chrome
  • :ping: Anser Sigma G putter
  • :snell: MTB-Black Balls
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Administrator
24 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

Putter should be going fastest at impact or slightly after (3" past at max).

No. Before impact, never after impact.

25 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

I may take video of my putting stroke the next time out on the practice green and post it here and cross post to my swing thread, even though it may not completely belong there.

Just your Member Swing topic, please.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • 1 year later...
  • Administrator

And the video outside of a Tweet…

  • Thumbs Up 1

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • 4 months later...
  • Administrator

So @cedrictheo was in the other day and we were doing a little work on the SAM PuttLab. I noted to him that you can, regardless of your actual tempo, have a good dynamics or a good acceleration/deceleration profile whether you have a fast tempo (think Brandt Snedeker) or a slow tempo (Crenshaw). I attempted to make two strokes, one of each, back-to-back hitting the ball to the same hole about 10-12 feet away… and I got these.

First, Brandt Snedeker:

ReportFast.jpg

Next, Ben Crenshaw:

ReportSlow.jpg

You can see that they're outside the ranges that SAM likes for both, and that the slow stroke was about twice as long (time) as the fast one. And you can also see… that I hit both putts with the putter head traveling exactly 1.57m/s!!!

@cedrictheo was impressed.

I stretched out the fast putt and put it over the tempo of the other putt and you get this:

ReportCombined.jpg

Pretty similar "profiles" if you match them to the time.

This is what I mean by a "modified pendulum." Whether your natural stroke is faster or slower, you can hit the ball with a slightly decelerating stroke. And even though someone like Brandt Snedeker may appear to be accelerating into the ball, he may be decelerating, too.

  • Informative 2

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • TST Partners

    TourStriker PlaneMate
    Golfer's Journal
    ShotScope
    The Stack System
    FlightScope Mevo
    Direct: Mevo, Mevo+, and Pro Package.

    Coupon Codes (save 10-15%): "IACAS" for Mevo/Stack, "IACASPLUS" for Mevo+/Pro Package, and "THESANDTRAP" for ShotScope.
  • Posts

    • Hello, I've been playing a Teardrop td17 F.C. putter for many years and love it. It still putts and feels as good or  better than any of the new putters I've tried and it's in excellent condition except the face has dings in it ever since I bought it used that kind of bother me. I was just wondering if it's possible to have some really shallow horizontal grooves milled into the face on a "roll face" putter. I think I would rather spend some money on it instead of trying to get used to a new putter.  Thanks
    • I agree with @klineka & @DaveP043 above.  When a new member first joins the club they cold be told that they are not eligible for tournaments until they have an established HCP.  As you said, it only takes a few rounds.  If they do not to post HCP that was their choice and choices have consequences.  If playing in the tournament is important to them then they should step up and establish an HCP.  Maybe they miss the 1st tournament, is that a real big deal?  And if it is a "Big Deal" to them then they had the opportunity to establish the HCP. As for not knowing how to report for HCP I assume your club has a pro and they should be able to assist in getting the scores reported and I suspect out of state courses may also have staff that can assist if asked.
    • Wordle 1,013 2/6 🟨⬜⬜🟨🟨 🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩 Thought I was gonna be a big shot today...  🙂    Nice Job!
    • Cool here's my tweak, "If a player’s ball lies in the general area and there is interference from exposed tree roots or exposed rocks that are in the fairway or 1 club length from the fairway the tree roots and exposed rocks are treated as ground under repair. The player may take free relief under Rule 16.1b.[But relief is not allowed if the tree roots only interfere with the player’s stance.]
    • I would never do the extended warranty on the $50 slow cooker.  I also routinely reject the extended service plans on those toys we buy for the grand-kids.  I do consider them on higher cost items and will be more likely to get one if the product has a lot of "Electronic Tech" that is often the problem longer-term.  I also consider my intended length of ownership & usage.  If my thought is it would get replaced in 2-3 years then why bother but if I hope to use it for 10 years then more likely to get the extension. I did buy out a lease about a year ago.  Just prior to the lease end date the tablet locked up and would not function.  I got it repaired under the initial warranty and would not have bought it out if they had not been able to fix it since IMO once electronic issues start in a car they can be hard to track down & fix.  They did fix it but when I bought out the lease I paid up for the extended warranty the would cover electronic failures because my intent is to keep that car for another 8-10 years and I just do not trust the electronics to last.  Last week the touch screen went black and was unresponsive.  It reset on the 2nd time I restarted the car but that is exactly how the last malfunction started.  I fully expect to have a claim on that on repair under the extended warranty.  I do not recall the exact cost to fix last time since I did not pay it but I think it was @ $700-$800 and I suspect that will be higher next time.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.

The popup will be closed in 10 seconds...