How Would You Play It (16 at Saddleback Golf Course in Firestone)

[Pretzel]

The bunkers really aren't that bad, they're kept in nice condition and not too deep. The front bunker starts at the level of the lake (like a beach) and then rises about 3 feet at the front to the level of the green. The only "difficult" bunker is the back one just because the green slopes away and you have a downhill lie. The hole becomes more challenging when played from the back tees (my high school coach wants us to practice from longer tees than the tournaments will be) when you have a 235 yard carry over the water, but it's still something where I always go for it. The reason is because, like Iacas mentioned, the green is wider than the fairway at almost every point, and from the back tees you have an even safer angle at the hole (the bunkers get more in the way of the ball bouncing into the water).

[rehmwa]

Seems the hole would be a nice par 3.  Add one more shorter tee box.  Put a 'drop' area over on the right (the 70 yard shot), and let the rest of the fairway go natural.

better hole

cheaper to maintain

get a long par 3 (with a VERY long par 3 for the better players as a tee box option)

[CR McDivot]

...Here's a 70-yard shot. I didn't even measure to the middle of the green.

70 yards, that yellow line.

Uh hmmmmmmm.

This isn't a par four.

You list your HC as "pro", for your game maybe the hole is a par 3.

For my 18.6 HC, it's a par 4 with a good chance at a birdie.

We just have different games, you play to yours, I am more comfortable playing to mine.

[Pretzel]

For my 18.6 HC, it's a par 4 with a good chance at a birdie. We just have different games, you play to yours, I am more comfortable playing to mine. :-)

I think his point was that it's easier to hit the green than the fairway most of the time here (depending on the wind) since the green is a larger target to hit. Unfortunately, the wind can be often problematic when playing this hole. Edit: Sorry if that came off harsh, I don't mean to discount your game at all. I just meant to point out why I thought he believed it should be a par 3 (I could be wrong). [quote name="rehmwa" url="/t/74644/how-would-you-play-it-16-at-saddleback-golf-course-in-firestone/54#post_991987"]Seems the hole would be a nice par 3.  Add one more shorter tee box.  Put a 'drop' area over on the right (the 70 yard shot), and let the rest of the fairway go natural. better hole cheaper to maintain get a long par 3 (with a VERY long par 3 for the better players as a tee box option) [/quote] Please don't encourage them to add another long par 3 over water!:-P Number four is very similar to the island green 17th at Sawgrass, but with an entrance on the left instead of back and no sheer faces. It's also 185 yards to the center instead of 140. The number 17 hole right after this has a creek running between the tee and the hole, and it plays 225 with a back pin and 195 with a front pin. Hole 11 is another 190 par 3 with a carry over a marsh the whole way. The par 3's are arguably the toughest holes on the course, excluding the 15th which is a 485 yard par 4. Even with that, the par 3's aren't a pushover, with only one of them being under 180 yards without a hazard carry. The greens for these holes are fairly large though, which is nice since it means I can actually play them decently instead of poorly.

[Lihu]

Number four is very similar to the island green 17th at Sawgrass, but with an entrance on the left instead of back and no sheer faces. It's also 185 yards to the center instead of 140. The number 17 hole right after this has a creek running between the tee and the hole, and it plays 225 with a back pin and 195 with a front pin. Hole 11 is another 190 par 3 with a carry over a marsh the whole way. The par 3's are arguably the toughest holes on the course, excluding the 15th which is a 485 yard par 4. Even with that, the par 3's aren't a pushover, with only one of them being under 180 yards without a hazard carry.

The greens for these holes are fairly large though, which is nice since it means I can actually play them decently instead of poorly.

Are they actual distances or the effective hole length at sea level? I keep thinking how the distances sound like PGA tour distances, but am not sure if the high altitude is taken into account when quoting them.

Even so, they are pretty stout distances.

[jshots]

I have such bad distance control under 100 yards that I'd probably end up in the water if I laid up anyways. I'd go for it.

[mdl]

I'm going for this for sure.  The landing zone is way smaller in the fairway!

Though from the back tees it's 265 to green center, 235 to clear the water.  That's a 3w shot of some sort.  No way I'm going for that.  From there I'm not sure about distances but I think I'm hitting driver towards the right side of the fairway, aiming to either just be in the fairway or run past to take a lot of the water left out of play.

[iacas]

You list your HC as "pro", for your game maybe the hole is a par 3.

For my 18.6 HC, it's a par 4 with a good chance at a birdie.

As you know, that's not how it works. It's a par three. Your "personal par" may leave you happy to make a 4, but that doesn't mean it's a par four just as the course I play isn't a "par 96" just because your course handicap is 24.

The 70 yard shot also requires a 240-yard tee shot, and it is to a smaller target than hitting it toward the green, so I'm still not sure why you're favoring that shot.

The only possible way I could see to play the hole to the fairway is if someone simply can't hit a 230-yard shot (at 5000 feet), but can hit a 150-yard and then a 120-yard shot, neither of which are particularly easy or safe.

[Golfingdad]

To be fair, this hole is a par three. It's a long par three, but calling it a par four is dumb. The only eagles on this hole are holes in one.

You know, it's funny that you say this.  It got me thinking how stupid I am for allowing the card-stated par of the hole to have any effect whatsoever on my decision.  (Now, to be fair to myself, I think everybody, including pros are guilty of this occasionally)

Everybody (who said lay-up) be honest:  If the thread was started over again and we were told that this is a par 3, how many of you would still choose to lay-up?

Shame on us.

---

BTW, for the sake of a strategy comparison, consider #16 at Cypress Point.  It's similar, although the water is right instead of left, the carry is a little less (200 instead of 210) and it's considered a par 3.  I would contend that 80-90% of us would say "aim for the center of the green" when asked about strategy on a long par 3 like that.

[Lihu]

You know, it's funny that you say this.  It got me thinking how stupid I am for allowing the card-stated par of the hole to have any effect whatsoever on my decision.  (Now, to be fair to myself, I think everybody, including pros are guilty of this occasionally)

Everybody (who said lay-up) be honest:  If the thread was started over again and we were told that this is a par 3, how many of you would still choose to lay-up?

Shame on us.

BTW, for the sake of a strategy comparison, consider #16 at Cypress Point.  It's similar, although the water is right instead of left, the carry is a little less (200 instead of 210) and it's considered a par 3.  I would contend that 80-90% of us would say "aim for the center of the green" when asked about strategy on a long par 3 like that.

Nice hole, and you're right. If someone said it was a par 3, I think many more of us would simply answer shoot for the green.

[mdl]

Nice hole, and you're right. If someone said it was a par 3, I think many more of us would simply answer shoot for the green.

Remember there are further back tees!  It's 265 to green center from the back!  That's only a par 3 on the tour, and I don't think even there the players would be super happy about the almost island green par 3 playing 265!  But I agree it's weird that from three of the four tee boxes this is basically a long par 3 labeled as a 4.

[Lihu]

Remember there are further back tees!  It's 265 to green center from the back!  That's only a par 3 on the tour, and I don't think even there the players would be super happy about the almost island green par 3 playing 265!  But I agree it's weird that from three of the four tee boxes this is basically a long par 3 labeled as a 4.

Sure, carry of 265 is pretty significant! That's something that only 0.05% of us can do, or the average tour player with a driver. I think only a long drive competitor can do it with an 8i or something. Maybe just Jamie Sadlowski?

This is one good reason why I never play the back tees.

[Pretzel]

Are they actual distances or the effective hole length at sea level? I keep thinking how the distances sound like PGA tour distances, but am not sure if the high altitude is taken into account when quoting them. Even so, they are pretty stout distances.

Sorry, those are the actual measured distances, using a laser rangefinder. The distances would all play about 5-10 yards shorter at sea level, depending on humidity and temperature. Also, while it is 265 to the center from the back tees, I measured it yesterday as a 230 carry to the front of the front bunker. It becomes a bit more realistic from that distance, so long as you realize that you're likely going to hit your second from the bunker. The bunkers have nice sand though, so it's not too difficult a up and down.

[CR McDivot]

As you know, that's not how it works. It's a par three. Your "personal par" may leave you happy to make a 4, but that doesn't mean it's a par four just as the course I play isn't a "par 96" just because your course handicap is 24.

The 70 yard shot also requires a 240-yard tee shot, and it is to a smaller target than hitting it toward the green, so I'm still not sure why you're favoring that shot.

The only possible way I could see to play the hole to the fairway is if someone simply can't hit a 230-yard shot (at 5000 feet), but can hit a 150-yard and then a 120-yard shot, neither of which are particularly easy or safe.

USGA has rated this course. Hole 16 is rated as an easy 4 (15th HC hole), but still a par 4.

I favor playing the hole as a par 4 because I can and have consistently placed a tee shot to the preffered fairway landing area. And I can hit a wedge with good accuracy to the center of the green from there as well. Carrying 240 with no rollout is not in my bag at present (and I doubt it ever was or will be).

Come on out and go for it if you like! We will all be impressed if you hold the green and 1 putt!

I'll take my chances at a 3 for birdie.

[kleraudio]

I played that hole last Sunday.   Problem is there's always like a 20mph wind in your face.  At least every time I see that hole.

It plays a good 250 with the wind to a small green with bunker front and water behind.

With that said, I used a five iron to hit it to end of the fairway, drew it a bit right into the water.  Sooooo, I should have just gone for it, same result :)

Bogey'd it.

[MS256]

I played that hole last Sunday.   Problem is there's always like a 20mph wind in your face.  At least every time I see that hole.

It plays a good 250 with the wind to a small green with bunker front and water behind.

With that said, I used a five iron to hit it to end of the fairway, drew it a bit right into the water.  Sooooo, I should have just gone for it, same result :)

Bogey'd it.

Yep. I hate to lay up and then blow the lay up.

Also I guess it goes without saying that on any of these "How would you play it?" threads a strong enough wind can change everything.

[iacas]

USGA has rated this course. Hole 16 is rated as an easy 4 (15th HC hole), but still a par 4.

Course ratings don't care about par. They could call the hole a par six and it wouldn't change anything.

And handicap assignments aren't about the "difficulty" of the hole. They're about the order in which a higher handicap player is likely to need strokes from a lower handicap player. Nothing more.

There's a 250-yard par three near me that's the 17th handicap hole on the course… because almost everybody makes a 4. There's little scoring spread.

That's why par fives are often low handicap holes: the bogey golfer makes a 6 or a 7 while the scratch golfer often looks at those for birdie opportunities.

I favor playing the hole as a par 4 because I can and have consistently placed a tee shot to the preffered fairway landing area. And I can hit a wedge with good accuracy to the center of the green from there as well. Carrying 240 with no rollout is not in my bag at present (and I doubt it ever was or will be).

How you choose to play the hole is not really relevant. It's a par three, whether the course calls it one or not.

Par affects how people play the hole far too much. Like someone else said, if the hole was introduced as a par three, more people would have said "hit it towards the green."

Also I guess it goes without saying that on any of these "How would you play it?" threads a strong enough wind can change everything.

Of course.

[CR McDivot]

How you choose to play the hole is not really relevant.

I thought that was the topic of this thread.