2014 Quicken Loans National Discussion Thread

[RonTheSavage]

Nah. If people want to talk about the other players, they would be. Nothing holding anyone back.

Exactly. Myself and another member had a discussion about Erik Compton and Patrick Reed earlier. Then we were right back to Tiger LOL

[Nosevi]

Just making a point Zeph :) Sure go ahead and discuss Tiger, no issues but the way he's put up as being more important than the game is very inward looking. Golf is played on (practically) every continent, some people tend to forget that fact. When Tiger plays well, I'll watch him and enjoy it. When he's off form it'd be nice to watch someone else. His post first round interview was great. "I really didn't play that badly....." (a direct quote) ....... GIR 50%, scrambling 12.5% - you really did. I hope he comes back on form, pretty sure he will to be honest, but right now his comeback was basically a flop. 7 pages of a forum in order to say that is, just perhaps, overkill :)

[MS256]

Yet here you are, writing the longest post thus far on the subject. Tiger is popular and people like to discuss him. There is just no way around it and I don't see how complaining about it in this thread is going to help.

"Stop liking something! I want you to like this other thing!"

Yep.

The "everybody should be covered equally" crowd doesn't seem to get that coverage is driven by ratings, ratings are driven by stars, and Tiger is the biggest star in golf no matter how he's playing.

If they discontinued showing Tiger's round when it became obvious he probably wasn't going to make the cut I would have already left the house to do some things I need to do today. Since they are still showing his round I am still sitting here.

[Yukari]

Yep.

The "everybody should be covered equally" crowd doesn't seem to get that coverage is driven by ratings, ratings are driven by stars, and Tiger is the biggest star in golf no matter how he's playing.

If they discontinued showing Tiger's round when it became obvious he probably wasn't going to make the cut I would have already left the house to do some things I need to do today. Since they are still showing his round I am still sitting here.

+1.

Just look at the U.S. Open rating.  Enough said.

On the topic of Tiger and Quicken Loan Tournament, looks like he's done for the week.

[David in FL]

Damn, I'm sorry Tiger missed the cut.... .....it would have been fun to watch him play like that for another 2 days! :-D

[Yukari]

I guess I will be watching LPGA this weekend.

Michelle Wie is in contention again (-5 for the day), one behind the leader.

[BENtSwing]

Damn, I'm sorry Tiger missed the cut....

.....it would have been fun to watch him play like that for another 2 days!

Really? Doubt you'd have time to watch it in between countless visits to TMZ.com and watching reality television.

[David in FL]

Really? Doubt you'd have time to watch it in between countless visits to TMZ.com and watching reality television. [IMG]http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/1476078/haters-gunn-hate-o.gif[/IMG]

I've got a DVR, I could've watched 'em all! :-D .

[turtleback]

A) Sorry to bother but could anyone direct me to the thread discussing the other 119 guys playing in the tournament, preferable some of the ones who are actually playing well?

B) "Golf is all about Tiger......." - No it's not. The top 2 players in the world right now are Adam Scott and Henrik Stenson and trust me when I tell you that the Australian and Swedish golfing public care far more about them than about Tiger.

C) I'll leave you to your discussion about Tiger - any chance of a mod changing the thread title?

Point A) - if you are interested n those 199 other players you should KNOW where that thread is since you would have started it.  Oh, wait, you did not such thing.  I guess you were;t interested in discussiong ANYONE, since ou haven't except for 2 guys wo aren;t even playing in the event.not THAT interested are you?

Point B) - then by all means Australian TV and Swedish TV should cover them.  But in the US Tiger is far more popular and people care a lot more about how he does than Stenson or Scott.   Maybe Americans are just better at recognizing that someone is an all time great than those other countries.  But I'm not at all sure why they should give any coverage at all to Stenson and Scott considering they weren't even playing.  See I don't think you really care about Scott and Stenson getting neglected - you just do not like it that Tiger gets all the attention.  Or did you expect them to cut away from the Quicken and give us coverage of Stenson at the BMW, where he is T19 at -8?

Point C) - but you didn't - you continued to complain because people don't like who you think they should like.

Just making a point Zeph :)

Sure go ahead and discuss Tiger, no issues but the way he's put up as being more important than the game is very inward looking. Golf is played on (practically) every continent, some people tend to forget that fact.

When Tiger plays well, I'll watch him and enjoy it. When he's off form it'd be nice to watch someone else.

His post first round interview was great. "I really didn't play that badly....." (a direct quote) ....... GIR 50%, scrambling 12.5% - you really did.

I hope he comes back on form, pretty sure he will to be honest, but right now his comeback was basically a flop. 7 pages of a forum in order to say that is, just perhaps, overkill :)

Only if you completely ignore context.  The greatest player of his time comes back after a three month injury layoff.  People are interested in how he does.  Coming off of back surgery in his first competitive rounds provides a context for his claim to not have played that badly.  You can choose to ignore that context, but that ends up reflecting on you and your bias, not Tiger.

As to coverage - did you watch the tournament on TV?  Despite their scores Tiger's group still had far and away the largest gallery.  What are you going to do next, mandate how many people can follow each player so your Stenson and Scott can have galleries the size of Tigers'?  Although how that would work when they aren't even playing . . .

Yep.

The "everybody should be covered equally" crowd doesn't seem to get that coverage is driven by ratings, ratings are driven by stars, and Tiger is the biggest star in golf no matter how he's playing.

If they discontinued showing Tiger's round when it became obvious he probably wasn't going to make the cut I would have already left the house to do some things I need to do today. Since they are still showing his round I am still sitting here.

And the fact is that when people get to vote with their feet Tiger's gallery is ALWAYS the biggest no matter how he is playing.  But some people are just not happy when everyone doesn't like the thing they like or, more importantly in this case, they don't like it when everyone likes someone they dislike.

[Nosevi]

[QUOTE name="MS256" url="/t/75388/2014-quicken-loans-national-discussion-thread/126#post_1012192"]  Yep. The "everybody should be covered equally" crowd doesn't seem to get that coverage is driven by ratings, ratings are driven by stars, and Tiger is the biggest star in golf no matter how he's playing. If they discontinued showing Tiger's round when it became obvious he probably wasn't going to make the cut I would have already left the house to do some things I need to do today. Since they are still showing his round I am still sitting here. [/QUOTE] +1. [QUOTE name="MS256" url="/t/75388/2014-quicken-loans-national-discussion-thread/126#post_1012192"] Just look at the U.S. Open rating.  Enough said. On the topic of Tiger and Quicken Loan Tournament, looks like he's done for the week. [/quote] The irony is I'm talking about Tiger - I know :-) But would the US Open ratings (in the US) have been anything like that bad if Ricky had been one shot behind and fighting for the win and his first Major? Maybe they would have been, I just think that's a shame. Would they have been if a US player had been taking the field apart rather than a German? Butch Harmon who commentates on our 'Sky Sports' coverage seemed to thoroughly enjoy watching what was a great display of golf, I just don't get why other golf fans from his country couldn't do based purely on who was giving the display. By your own admission several of you will watch Tiger play badly in a 'normal' tournament rather than Kaymer playing fantastic golf in a Major. And it doesn't seem to be a problem you have with Martin Kaymer, there's quite literally nothing not to like - unless you don't like polite, level-headed, honest young men who excel at their sport. I say "in the US" in brackets above because they were fine elsewhere - Germany especially, you all seem to be ignoring that fact. Golf is a World Sport. TV ratings were not terrible during the US Open, US TV ratings were terrible during the US Open - there's a difference. The game is growing globally and the likes of Martin Kaymer, Adam Scott and Rory Mcilroy are far more important to that in their respective countries than Tiger is. If Tiger is or isn't playing in The Open Championship is utterly irrelevant to the ratings it'll get in the UK or Germany or Sweden or Australia or South Africa or ........ People say that if you think the hype around Tiger is bad for the sport (I'm not talking the money I'm talking golf as a sport, the two can be separated) then you're a 'Tiger hater'. That is utter nonsense. I personally hope he gets it together and finds his old form, it was fantastic to watch. The last thing I'll say then I'll leave you all alone is some seem to be saying "I'm a golf fan but I'll only watch it if Tiger is playing." That's paraphrasing but look back over some of the comments. If that's how you feel I can understand why you firmly believe that Tiger is bigger than the game and looking at some US TV ratings that seems to be the case with quite a few people over there. But if you'll only watch the game if Tiger is playing are you actually a 'golf fan' or are you in fact a 'Tiger fan'?

[Nosevi]

And the fact is that when people get to vote with their feet Tiger's gallery is ALWAYS the biggest no matter how he is playing.  But some people are just not happy when everyone doesn't like the thing they like or, more importantly in this case, they don't like it when everyone likes someone they dislike.

Hi Turtle. Look, I was prompting debate - it's a forum after all. I don't dislike Tiger or even mind in the slightest if others 'idolise' him. I know plenty of people who do dislike him based on his past and the way he occasionally behaves on the course but I'm not one of them.

I said earlier "I don't get it." I still don't. I don't get how some hold Tiger up as perfect in every respect when the evidence before you shows he is far from that. He's a nice enough bloke that I think he'd be the first to admit he has some fairly glaring faults.

I don't mind if people want to watch Tiger and I don't really care if the coverage of this tournament has been all about him - good on him for coming back so quickly. But you can't deny that there's a big percentage that contend that Tiger is bigger than the game itself while saying they are a golf fan ........ but only if Tiger is playing. That I don't "get". Like I said I hope he gets back to somewhere close to is old form, it was great to watch.

Anyway, it's been a lively debate, never a bad thing and hope I haven't ruffled too many feathers :)

Edit: Sorry just a very quick point - When you say other nations TV should cover their stars the snag is they can't - they generally get feeds from the US networks as they have the 'rights' tied down. If the US networks follow one player, we all do. And when asked about players in the tournament who I would like to see more of I did point to someone other than those 2. I mentioned those 2 in relation to the fact that they are currently the best 2 golfers in the world. We'll see how long that lasts :)

[Zeph]

Are there people who claim Tiger is "perfect in every respect"?

[Nosevi]

Maybe I was overstating the case to make a point, Zeph :) I just don't think he's a particularly good role model for my 2 young boys who are just starting out in the game. His work ethic is, the tantrums and language now and then I could live without. It's a little like those buffoons who yell out just after a shot has been taken. It's not something the game of golf needs (IMO obviously).

[Zeph]

I don't consider any sports professional, celebrity or known person as a role model, simply because of his or hers accomplishments. Your job as a parent, is to teach the chillun what's right and not. Preferably by being the role model yourself. I like Tiger and watch Tiger because he's a very good golfer. I don't care about his love life or if he curses from time to time on the course. It's not like he's the only professional golfer doing this. If I want to take anything from Tiger, or use him as an example, it would be his work ethics and determination to become the golfer he is today. I find his level of dedication admirable.

This is one of the misunderstandings about Tiger. Some people seem to belive that Tiger being popular means we think he's perfect in every way. We watch Tiger because he's the best player of our age, possibly ever. Not because he conducts himself like a proper gentleman on the course and is a role model.

[Nosevi]

All fair Zeph and hopefully I'm not doing too bad a job with my boys. And as I've repeatedly said, I like watching Tiger play golf (when he's playing well.) I just don't understand the fairly widely held belief that golf isn't worth watching if he's not there. It's been said on this thread and it's clear from the ratings that a lot of guys over on your side of the pond feel that way. I guess for me the golden age of any sport is when you have several 'stars' closely matched battling for the championship. I watch F1 and to me the golden ages have been times like when you had Prost, Senna and Mansel trading blows race by race, or Lauder and Hunt perhaps. It wasn't when you had Schumacher winning everything in sight or more recently Vettel. The hard fought battles were the ones I wanted to watch not the eras of dominance by one driver. In golf I feel much the same. Kaymer put on a great display but it wasn't exciting. But there again, it wouldn't have been any more exciting if Tiger had walked to a victory. Anyway, I really am done, will leave you all to it :)

[Zeph]

No worries, Nosevi. Given Tiger's early departure from the competition, I fear this thread won't be as populated for the remainder of the weekend in any event.

[turtleback]

Maybe I was overstating the case to make a point, Zeph :)

I just don't think he's a particularly good role model for my 2 young boys who are just starting out in the game. His work ethic is, the tantrums and language now and then I could live without.

It's a little like those buffoons who yell out just after a shot has been taken. It's not something the game of golf needs (IMO obviously).

That is the problem  You vastly overstate the point, setting up a straw dog you can argue against.  You complain about the attention he gets when, demonstrably, people given a choice STILL flock to watch him.  Even if he plays badly.  You act as if he gets all of this attention from the fans and, therefore, from the media, from mere happenstance.  He is clearly the best player of his era and arguably the best of all time and people want to see greatness.  Something that neither Scott not Stenson, to use your examples, have achieved.  In both cases you have guys who have had good stretches of play but whose careers give no indication of any kind of them ever entering the pantheon of golf greats of all time.  And why someone who claims to be a golf fan gives a rip about his personal life is beyond me, unless it just gives something to criticize.

As to role model, I never allowed my kids to hold up people they didn't know as role models.  *I* and my wife were their role models.  If your kids are really using Tiger as their model for behavior (which, frankly I do not believe)  instead of using you as that model then the problem is not Tiger.  If they are adopting behavior you do not approve of because they watch Tiger then why do you let them watch?  Why can't you explain to them that it is not appropriate.  Why can't you use consequences to redirect their behavior?  IOW, why blame him for the behavior of kids you have parental control and authority over???

And as to your implicit blame of his influence for the buffoonery you talk about, people were doing that sot of thing before Tiger came along.  Long before Tiger these things were happening.  Most of it started when John Daly hit the scene with his then-monster drives.   It may have increased but it is a hard sell to blame it on Tiger, as opposed to a general coarsening of our society, particularly in the area of sports.

And frankly I simply do not believe that you are not at heart a Tiger detractor.  He is all you have talked about,  You complain about no discussion of other players but you yourself do nothing to discuss other players (except to bring up players who aren't even in the event) and devote all of your attention to complaining about Tiger and the media.  You say: " I don't mind if people want to watch Tiger and I don't really care if the coverage of this tournament has been all about him ". And " I don't dislike Tiger or even mind in the slightest if others 'idolise' him.

In which case I have to ask, why are all of your posts criticizing Tiger's personal life, criticizing his play because of ridiculous expectations not met, criticizing fans who root for him and want to watch him even when he isn't playing well, complain about the media coverage of Tiger at this tournament, and criticize the members of this board because they aren't discussing what you want them to discuss (but that you don't actually discuss, yourself).  And after all of these complaints you, again, write: " I don't mind if people want to watch Tiger and I don't really care if the coverage of this tournament has been all about him ".

Well, sorry, you DO mind it if these things happen or you would not be spending so much time and writing so many messages to complain about these very things.  So to believe your statements we would have to conclude that you are just complaining about things you do not mind, which makes no sense.

As to Tiger being bigger than golf?  Maybe, maybe not.  But I bet that every single pro out there hopes he regains his form and plays for 10-15 more years because it will put more money in their pockets.  Tiger could walk away from the game right now and he would be financially set for generations of his family to come  He would have a secure place in any conversation of the greatest of all time even if he doesn't end up on the top of the discussion.  And golf?  Professional golf would enter a period, IMO, of very slow to no growth until such time as an incandescent figure appears on the scene.  And that won't be Scott, or Stenson, and may not even be anyone born yet.  If he were to quit, the next TV contract would not be an increase and might well be a decrease because of the dropping ratings.  Hardcore "golf fans" who would just as soon watch Matt Kuchar, Henrk Stenson, Martin Kaymer, and Scott Walker rather than Tiger are out there.  But there are not enough of them to support any real growth in the tours.  Reality is a stubborn thing.  You can ignore it, but there it still is.

[iacas]

But would the US Open ratings (in the US) have been anything like that bad if Ricky had been one shot behind and fighting for the win and his first Major? Maybe they would have been, I just think that's a shame. Would they have been if a US player had been taking the field apart rather than a German? Butch Harmon who commentates on our 'Sky Sports' coverage seemed to thoroughly enjoy watching what was a great display of golf, I just don't get why other golf fans from his country couldn't do based purely on who was giving the display.

Kaymer, Stenson, Scott, Fowler, etc. are not once-in-a-generation (or longer) talents .

It's that simple.

The last thing I'll say then I'll leave you all alone is some seem to be saying "I'm a golf fan but I'll only watch it if Tiger is playing." That's paraphrasing but look back over some of the comments. If that's how you feel I can understand why you firmly believe that Tiger is bigger than the game and looking at some US TV ratings that seems to be the case with quite a few people over there. But if you'll only watch the game if Tiger is playing are you actually a 'golf fan' or are you in fact a 'Tiger fan'?

Now you're starting to sound like some other fuddy duddies we have here.

I spend 60-80 hours a week being a "fan" of golf by working in the golf industry, maintaining this site, etc.

I typically only watch when Tiger is playing, or majors… though I went and played instead of watching the back nine at Pinehurst. Heck, I watched every second of the U.S. Women's Open coverage… because of Michelle Wie.

If you want to pretend that I'm only a "Tiger fan" and not a "golf fan," you clearly don't appreciate that people will make time for truly special things , while choosing to spend time for mostly ordinary things differently (like with their families or whatever).