Hank Haney: "I saw Tiger's drive diminish as early as 2006"

[iacas]

No it doesn't. That is merely your inference, not my implication. You're mistaken.

Pretty comfortable saying I'd wager you'd be in the minority on that. [quote name="chasm" url="/t/75609/hank-haney-i-saw-tigers-drive-diminish-as-early-as-2006#post_1015361"]i'm glad to hear it. I agree there's a distinction between describing a statement as stupid, and accusing its author of stupidity. I suspect that distinction may be lost on quite a number of people, though.[/quote] I wasn't talking to anyone but you. [quote name="chasm" url="/t/75609/hank-haney-i-saw-tigers-drive-diminish-as-early-as-2006#post_1015361"]Actually, that isn't true. In my intial response to your enquiry "what's your point?"[/quote] I said more than that. [quote name="chasm" url="/t/75609/hank-haney-i-saw-tigers-drive-diminish-as-early-as-2006#post_1015361"]I don't know what this means. Saying what? I wasn't questioning your assertion that we don't know about Tiger's drive, I was responding to your inaccurate assertion that I was projecting.[/quote] Tiger's decreased drive is the topic, yet it has not been shown that his drive has decreased in the slightest. So the topic of whether he even lost drive in 2006 is quite on topic and needs to be established first before anyone can really even start to discuss reasons why. It's a holiday and most of the above is semantics or close to it, so I'm out. Have a great day.

[mvmac]

I don't think Tiger's "drive" did diminish, '06-'08 were pretty successful for Tiger. As Erik pointed out, maybe Tiger was spending less time with Hank, so Hank's perception might be Tiger spending less time with his swing coach equals less drive.

No, my post doesn't imply that.

The post you made (below) does imply that, you're saying everyone should handle it the same way.

I'd have thought my point was obvious. Everyone's father dies. My professionalism didn't diminish when my father died, and as it happens, he died at the peak of my career. There are numerous golfers on tour whose parents have died. Nobody makes those deaths an excuse for their failures.

As for your implication that Tiger's relationship with his father was somehow more special than that of other fathers and sons, please don't make me laugh. It was so special that he was prepared to use his father's death in an unbelievably classless attempt to excuse his serial infidelities. That's showing respect for the dead, alright.

No one is saying his relationship was more special, just that Tiger doesn't have to have the same reaction to his father's death than "everyone else". Earl introduced him to the game, taught him how to play, their relationship was tied to the game, so when Earl died I'm sure it was tough for Tiger to go out to play and practice at first.

Whoops ... I read the title and stupidly thought he meant Tigers drivING had diminished. ;)

Oh then I would have to agree with Hank

[Shindig]

Aren't two of the regulars leaving [i]The View[/i]? Just saying, Hank might be catty and petty enough to replace both of them.

[chasm]

[quote name="mvmac" url="/t/75609/hank-haney-i-saw-tigers-drive-diminish-as-early-as-2006/18#post_1015373"] The post you made (below) does imply that, you're saying everyone should handle it the same way. [/QUOTE] On the contrary, I have no view on how different people should "handle" the deaths of their parents. I do have a view, however, on the fact that for some reason, Tiger fanboys get all teary-eyed about the death of his father, while paying no attention to the (quite possibly) equally disabling grief of those of his competitors who have suffered similar or greater losses. It's a double standard. I make no apology for pointing that out.

[iacas]

On the contrary, I have no view on how different people should "handle" the deaths of their parents.

Your words above say otherwise. Several people have now pointed this out.

I do have a view, however, on the fact that for some reason, Tiger fanboys get all teary-eyed about the death of his father, while paying no attention to the (quite possibly) equally disabling grief of those of his competitors who have suffered similar or greater losses.

You can't show any evidence that anyone's gotten teary-eyed. Not here in this thread, and that's the context. You're the only one talking about how people are supposedly getting teary-eyed and paying no attention to others, and yet you're the only one making sweeping statements about how everyone should behave and react just as you did when your " professionalism didn't diminish."

Prove that Tiger's "professionalism diminished," please, or that anyone is making an excuse for him?

Tiger in 2006: Played 15 times, won 8 of them, and $9.9M.

Tiger in 2007: Played 16 times, won 7 of them, and $10.8M.

Tiger in 2008: Played 6 times, won 4 of them, including a U.S. Open on a broken leg. Won $5.8M (again, in SIX events).

Tiger gets a pass on missing the cut at the U.S. Open that year. It was his first event back after an extended layoff following his father's death. He won the very next major (and, again, seven OTHER times that year, during all of which his dad was either sick or had already passed away).

Nobody makes those deaths an excuse for their failures.

You said above that his father's death was being used as an excuse for "failures," yet those years are hardly "failures."

So your statement, quoted right here, is doubly wrong.

a) Who has made any excuses?

b) What failures?!?!

And you accused me of a straw man? Your entire discussion is around two straw men: a) that Tiger had "failures" following his father's death, and b) that "fanboys" are getting "teary-eyed" and "making excuses" instead of, as you seem to believe, everyone should react the same to the death of a father and maintain their "professionalism."

This thread is actually about whether Tiger's dedication or "drive diminished as early as 2006."

2006: 15 events, 8 wins, $9.9M.

2007: 16 events, 7 wins, $10.8M.

2008: 6 events, 4 wins, $5.8M.

I don't think Hank has any real evidence that his statement is correct. If a golfer can accomplish that with "diminished drive," then that's pretty dane awesome. This feels once again like Hank is just trying to get his name in the press again by talking about a guy that fired him a long time ago.

So, @chasm , please stick to the topic of the thread - Hank Haney's comments on Tiger's "diminished drive" - and stop erecting straw men that don't even seem to have a basis in fact - Tiger's "failures."

[isukgolf]

Sorry did not read the whole thread, since I think Hank Haney and John Feinstein or actually the same person ... As result I could care less what they have to say ... And consider debating the value of any of their comments a HUGE waste of time They both make a part of their living, making comments about Tiger, that they have no better clue than most of us ... One more thing ... If crying a baby and missing my dad every day is "being professional" then count me as a professional ... My life changed, the day I lost my dad ... And I would not say for the better ether ...

[newtogolf]

I'd have thought my point was obvious. Everyone's father dies. My professionalism didn't diminish when my father died, and as it happens, he died at the peak of my career. There are numerous golfers on tour whose parents have died. Nobody makes those deaths an excuse for their failures.

As for your implication that Tiger's relationship with his father was somehow more special than that of other fathers and sons, please don't make me laugh. It was so special that he was prepared to use his father's death in an unbelievably classless attempt to excuse his serial infidelities. That's showing respect for the dead, alright.

My point, if it needs any further emphasis, is that those who are determined to believe that Tiger is some sort of hero are prepared to clutch at any and every reason to make excuses for him, even though those excuses apply to everyone else, too.

Tiger has been a great golfer. He is now in decline. The fact that he has been a great sportsman doesn't make him Mother Theresa, or somehow more entitled to excuses.

Was your father instrumental in getting you established in your profession the way Earl was in Tiger's?  I wouldn't be shocked after grieving the loss of his father/mentor/friend/coach he was faced with some internal questions about how important golf was to his life without his dad to share it with.

[newtogolf]

Hank acts like the bitter wife / girlfriend that refuses to accept the relationship is over.  I realize because they were Tiger's coach Haney and Harmon must constantly get asked questions about Tiger, but somehow Harmon is able to refrain from commenting and Haney isn't.

[turtleback]

Whoops ... I read the title and stupidly thought he meant Tigers drivING had diminished. ;)

That would have been a lot smarter thread than this one.

The real question I have is how does Haney know how much Tiger has practiced in the past 6 months (he claims it was one week).  Or for that matter, how does he KNOW that Tiger started practicing less in 2006?  And even if that is true, how does he account for the fact that the 2006-2008 period, after he allegedly lost his drive and started practicing less, was one of the best 3 year period of his career and far better than any other players' best 3 year period, probably going back 50 years.  To add to Erik's list of his wins, during that period he missed the cut in the US Open after his dad died.  Other than that, in the majors he finished T12 in the '07 British Open and in every other major he played in he was in the top 3, including 4 wins.  So he was 8 of 10 in top threes with a missed cut, a T12, and 4 wins.

For some perspective, in the 63-65 period Jack had 8 of 12 top 3s with a missed cut, a T23, a T12, a T31 and 3 wins - a helluva performance but not up to the 2006-2008 driveless Tiger.

On the contrary, I have no view on how different people should "handle" the deaths of their parents. I do have a view, however, on the fact that for some reason, Tiger fanboys get all teary-eyed about the death of his father, while paying no attention to the (quite possibly) equally disabling grief of those of his competitors who have suffered similar or greater losses.

It's a double standard. I make no apology for pointing that out.

Bzzzzzzzzzzt.  Once you have to resort to calling names you automatically lose.

[Mulligan Jeff]

Haney was with Tiger in 2006 and even mentioned it in "The Big Miss" that Woods was practicing less.

[Spitfisher]

The topic of the thread was " Hank Haneys assertion that he saw Tigers drive deminishing as early as 2006" . Just saying. Reading the quotation of Hank I believe it to be very plausible....2006 was, the end of his domination. Yes he continued to win some touneys and obviously played well in the majors. But to Haneys point he very well may have sensed a disinterest, a change of practice, maybe even body language, demeanor. None of us know' but Hank.

[ChrisP]

We can all speculate whether he's telling the truth or whether he's full of it, but none of us really know. Haney may know some just by talking to people in the know. Who knows.

Although I think Tiger's workload was still strong through 2008 and maybe '09 (hell he was in the final round pairings of the Masters, USO and PGA in '07 and Masters and USO in '08), It wouldn't surprise me if there's some truth to Haney's words around the time when Tiger was going through his rough patch with the marriage and divorce. From probably around early 2010 through 2012, Tiger was having a lot of personal life issues, injury problems....he fired his caddie. Just a lot of distractions that probably took him away from the game. But I think he started fresh last year. You got the sense Tiger "re-charged" and had a really solid year, won 5 times and gave himself a really great chance in 3 of the majors. Had a little funk the last 6 months with the back problems, but I think if he's fully healthy, he'll pick up the workload that he had last year.

[iacas]

Reading the quotation of Hank I believe it to be very plausible....2006 was, the end of his domination.

Did you see the numbers above? From 2006 to 2008, he played in 37 events. He won over $26M. He won over half (19) of those 37 events.

Heck, the guy led the money list after playing in six events and winning the U.S. Open on a broken leg until well into the end of the year. He finished second to Vijay Singh who played 23 events, and beat out Phil Mickelson who played in 21 events by nearly $700,000. And he played six events , his last one in JUNE.

But to Haneys point he very well may have sensed a disinterest, a change of practice, maybe even body language, demeanor.

None of us know' but Hank.

Tiger knows. Probably a LOT more than Hank…

[minitour]

No it doesn't.

Actually, it does.

You're mistaken.

[ScouseJohnny]

I don't usually read the rag in which these quotes were recently published, but the newspaper itself doesn't matter, as the words are the man's own:

" I feel old. The Chinese kid (Guan Tianlang) who qualified for the Masters last year (aged 14) was born after I won the tournament for the first time and that is just not cool."

"That is what is coming: the next generation are taller, bigger and more physical - these kids in college, all the long-hitters are 6ft 2ins to 6ft 4ins. "

"The difference as I have aged is I can't play the way I used to."

Source: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/golf/article-2667187/Tiger-Woods-Golf-legend-returns-charity-event-Quicken-Loans-National-three-months-undergoing-surgery.html

What is the difference between Tiger Woods and most other highly successful tour players as they entered their forties?

I'd say the difference is that no-one else has ever had to shoulder the pressure of trying to win as many majors as Seve ever won in his entire career , only starting at the age of 38, with a body that already bears the scars of a lifetime of playing professional golf.

I don't know about his drive dissipating as early as 2006 - that sounds highly unlikely. I do wonder, though, whether the most significant recent event was the approach shot to 15th at the 2013 Masters - not because of all the fallout about the drop, but because, but for the misfortune of a superb shot hitting the pin and finding the water, he was sure as hell going to win that tournament. And 5 would have become 4, with the added impetus of winning the first major of a year in which he was playing some wonderful golf.

[Spitfisher]

Did you see the numbers above? From 2006 to 2008, he played in 37 events. He won over $26M. He won over half (19) of those 37 events. Heck, the guy led the money list after playing in six events and winning the U.S. Open on a broken leg until well into the end of the year. He finished second to Vijay Singh who played 23 events, and beat out Phil Mickelson who played in 21 events by nearly $700,000. And he played six events , his last one in JUNE. Tiger knows. Probably a LOT more than Hank…

I said after 2006, and in your quest to defend him, I did not insinuate that he has fallen off the map, simple stated that his domination seems to wained a little bit after 2006. I am well aware of his record. domination I was speaking about was when he was blowing away the field by strokes, come backs, clutch putts and shots. He's gifted, he's great, but after 2006 he changed a little bit and. After 2009 another change occured. ( again I am well aware of his record) Tiger knows. Probably a LOT more than Hank… . Maybe if tiger was a bit more generous or more open in speaking to the press, some of the assumptions would be clearer, but he chooses his own persona. Hank was still his coach in 2006, still speaking with him, still meeting with him. I trust Hank may have saw things that allowed him to make his assertion. But you think otherwise?

[Mr. Desmond]

From people close to Hank in the late '90's, there is never enough money... Since I assume Hank has no relationship with Tiger, Hank is either speaking out of ignorance, or out of his mouth, or obtains his info from third party sources.

IMHO, Hank is commenting to keep his name out there and money coming in...

[ChrisP]

From people close to Hank in the late '90's, there is never enough money... Since I assume Hank has no relationship with Tiger, Hank is either speaking out of ignorance, or out of his mouth, or obtains his info from third party sources.

IMHO, Hank is commenting to keep his name out there and money coming in...

I'm sure it's through third party sources. But the fact his drive was less in 2007 and 2008 makes no sense given the fact he was in the final pairing of the last round in the '07 Masters, '07 USOpen, '07 PGA and '08 US Open and won the '07 PGA, '08 US Open and finished runner up to Immelman at the '08 Masters. Had to be working pretty hard then, especially to win on one leg at Torrey Pines.

Like I said, I think there may some merit to Tiger's lack of drive from 2010-2012 when he was going through a ton of personal life problems, a lot of injury issues and what not, but I think Tiger hit the re-fresh button to start 2013. Lot of people have said he worked extremely hard last year and it paid off...it was like a new Tiger...maybe not so much in the Majors, but he put himself in position to win 3 of them.

If there's one mistake I think Tiger made it was getting rid of Stevie. I don't know what the breakup reason was...if it was personal or what....but Williams and Tiger were a great match, particularly in the Majors, and as good as LaCava is, I don't think he has the same effect as Stevie did on Tiger. Look how Williams has helped Adam Scott.