Tees different from scorecard - handicap question

[Braivo]

Played a course this weekend with the following tees/ratings:

Black - 70.9/126 - 6,408yds

White - 68.0/117 - 5,791yds

I usually try to play the tees in the 6,200 range, but since the whites were so short we decided to play the Blacks .

Once we started playing we found that the Black tee markers on every hole were only a few yards behind the Whites.  420 yard holes were playing about 370, etc.  This was consistent across the entire round.  I would guess the Blacks played about 6,000 yds for the round, at most.  It looked like maybe they were doing maintenace toward the back half of the tee areas and had pushed everything forward.

My question is this, would I still record my score for handicap purposes using the Black rating?  It doesn't seem fair to give myself the Black rating when the course played much closer to the White difficulty.  Or do I just use the rating for the tees that I played, despite the disconnect between the scorecard and the actual yardage?

I am guessing I log the Black rating, but has anyone else encountered something like this?

[dkolo]

Played a course this weekend with the following tees/ratings:

Black - 70.9/126 - 6,408yds

White - 68.0/117 - 5,791yds

I usually try to play the tees in the 6,200 range, but since the whites were so short we decided to play the Blacks.

Once we started playing we found that the Black tee markers on every hole were only a few yards behind the Whites.  420 yard holes were playing about 370, etc.  This was consistent across the entire round.  I would guess the Blacks played about 6,000 yds for the round, at most.  It looked like maybe they were doing maintenace toward the back half of the tee areas and had pushed everything forward.

My question is this, would I still record my score for handicap purposes using the Black rating?  It doesn't seem fair to give myself the Black rating when the course played much closer to the White difficulty.  Or do I just use the rating for the tees that I played, despite the disconnect between the scorecard and the actual yardage?

I am guessing I log the Black rating, but has anyone else encountered something like this?

I think the best action would be to talk it over with the pro shop or the front desk to see what they have to say about it.

[Dormie1360]

I would not post the score as is.  You would be hurting yourself and giving yourself a lower differential than you deserve.

The USGA Handicap manual has adjustments for yardage differences from what a rated tee is suppose to be.

If you feel 400 yards is a reasonable estimate as to the difference between the Black tees and the tees you played you can subtract 1.8 from the rating and 4 from the slope and post your score with the new slope and rating.  Not sure on the software you are using to post, but you probably would have to post it as an away score and manually enter the rating and slop below.

So 69.1 and 122.

See chart at bottom.

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-System-Manual/Rule-05/

[iacas]

That's 35 yards per hole, which I think you'd notice.

Courses are supposed to put the tees near the rated locations, but many don't since so many people play from the incorrect tees.

[boogielicious]

That's 35 yards per hole, which I think you'd notice.

Courses are supposed to put the tees near the rated locations, but many don't since so many people play from the incorrect tees.

It works both ways.  Sometimes my league course will have the white tees with the back tees, especially on par 3 holes.

[Braivo]

That's 35 yards per hole, which I think you'd notice. Courses are supposed to put the tees near the rated locations, but many don't since so many people play from the incorrect tees.

This was a Saturday morning at a busy course, they may have done it to speed pace of play. It was definitely noticeable as there was clearly a teeing area meant for each tee, but the white and black were on the forward area for many holes, with an empty tee area 30+ yds back. [quote name="Dormie1360" url="/t/76703/tees-different-from-scorecard-handicap-question#post_1044048"]I would not post the score as is.  You would be hurting yourself and giving yourself a lower differential than you deserve. The USGA Handicap manual has adjustments for yardage differences from what a rated tee is suppose to be. If you feel 400 yards is a reasonable estimate as to the difference between the Black tees and the tees you played you can subtract 1.8 from the rating and 4 from the slope and post your score with the new slope and rating.  Not sure on the software you are using to post, but you probably would have to post it as an away score and manually enter the rating and slop below. So 69.1 and 122. See chart at bottom. [URL=http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-System-Manual/Rule-05/]http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-System-Manual/Rule-05/[/URL] [/quote] Thank you for this. This is probably the right way to record the score. Next time I'll track the yardage diff a little more carefully.

[whatwoodtigerdo]

I would not post the score as is.  You would be hurting yourself and giving yourself a lower differential than you deserve. The USGA Handicap manual has adjustments for yardage differences from what a rated tee is suppose to be. If you feel 400 yards is a reasonable estimate as to the difference between the Black tees and the tees you played you can subtract 1.8 from the rating and 4 from the slope and post your score with the new slope and rating.  Not sure on the software you are using to post, but you probably would have to post it as an away score and manually enter the rating and slop below. So 69.1 and 122. See chart at bottom. [URL=http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-System-Manual/Rule-05/]http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-System-Manual/Rule-05/[/URL]

So just to clarify because I am new at this and pretty funny if I get my approval today may post my first score today with this issue if I can tonight. If a par 4's fAirway is shut down so they turn it into a par 3 then you locate the difference in yards from the scorecard on the chart and then subtract the course and slope differential that is listed? Does this sound right?

[Golfingdad]

So just to clarify because I am new at this and pretty funny if I get my approval today may post my first score today with this issue if I can tonight. If a par 4's fAirway is shut down so they turn it into a par 3 then you locate the difference in yards from the scorecard on the chart and then subtract the course and slope differential that is listed? Does this sound right?

I'd still ask in the pro shop first.  My father-in-laws club had done that last year for one hole and they actually got the rating changed for the duration.

[Dormie1360]

No, this is a little different.  For a situation like this, I would give yourself a Par for the hole (4) plus any handicap strokes allocated to you for this hole.  You can obviously play the hole as a par 3, but I would not record your score for the hole.

The chart is for correcting tees on a golf course that are not rated and there is a nearby tee with a rating.  I think there are two many other variables that come into play when shortening a hole this much that changes it from a 4 to a 3.

In your situation you have a temporary hole due to construction.

[sinned123]

I'm a newbie so forgive me if I'm either posting in the wrong thread or this has been discussed before. I play in a competitive handicap rule based league, and this is what happened at on a tee box....We (GOLFER'S A,B,C,& D) are playing from the white tees. On the 7th tee...for some stupid inane mental block players A & B hit from the blue tees by mistake. Player C calls them on it after B stripes a drive center cut down the fairway.(I'm player D who was off watering some bushes while this transpired).Now here's the thing...this was in a stroke play event against the field and ALSO a match play between A vs C, & B vs D within the foursome. I thought that Players A&B; can re tee w/o penalty and move up to the white tees...C said they are assessed a 2 stroke penalty and lose the hole for the "2 club length" rule on a tee box... Anyone know what the proper call is? Thanks SINN

[Dormie1360]

Well...........a rules official would disqualify everyone from the stroke play competition and void the matches.  Regardless of who did what on the tee.  You can not combine both forms of play.  (Stroke and Match play under the rules.)

If you'd like, we can talk about what the ruling would be if it was strictly a stroke play event, or a match play event.

BTW welcome!

33-1/6

Players in Match Compete Concurrently in Stroke-Play Competition

Q.In ignorance of the Rules, A and B played a match and concurrently competed in a stroke-play competition. What should the Committee do?

A.Under Rule 33-1 , the result of the match is null and void, and A and B are disqualified in the stroke-play competition.

If the match was to be played on any day in a prescribed period, A and B must replay the match within the prescribed period. If it was too late for A and B to replay the match within the period, A and B are disqualified from the match-play competition, unless one concedes the match to the other.

[Rulesman]

Now here's the thing...this was in a stroke play event against the field and ALSO a match play between A vs C, & B vs D within the foursome.  Anyone know what the proper call is?

Thanks

SINN

Yes

Under Rule 33-1 , the result of the match is null and void, and all players disqualified in the stroke-play competition.

The problem you have encountered is exactly why both forms cannot be played together.

If there was no matchplay element both players must correct their error and play from the correct tee with a 2 stroke penalty.

If it was matchplay only, C may immediately recall A's stroke and require him to replay correctly or let it stand.

The same applies to D and B.

However, C seemingly did not make his claim immediately so lost the right to make the claim.

[sinned123]

Thanks guys...not to mention player C is some type of person watching all unfold and not saying a word !!!!...In our league we(foursome) play a STROKE PLAY (with handicaps) against the field and a MATCH PLAY (with handicaps) against the other player in our foursome. That's why I am/was so confused as to what measure to take. Sinn

[Fourputt]

Thanks guys...not to mention player C is some type of person watching all unfold and not saying a word !!!!...In our league we(foursome) play a STROKE PLAY (with handicaps) against the field and a MATCH PLAY (with handicaps) against the other player in our foursome. That's why I am/was so confused as to what measure to take.

Sinn

Such confusion can never be resolved when trying to mix match and stroke play.  They are inherently incompatible.  Rule 33-1:

33-1. Conditions; Waiving Rule

The Committee must establish the conditions under which a competition is to be played.

The Committee has no power to waive a Rule of Golf.

Certain specific Rules governing stroke play are so substantially different from those governing match play that combining the two forms of play is not practicable and is not permitted. The result of a match played in these circumstances is null and void and, in the stroke play competition, thecompetitors are disqualified.

[Golfingdad]

Such confusion can never be resolved when trying to mix match and stroke play.  They are inherently incompatible.  Rule 33-1:

Not sure how the rule that the players are disqualified from the stroke play competition is applied when that is how the league is run.  There is a league a few of my friends play in that does the same thing.  They're not deciding to play match play competition during a stroke play tournament, they are just doing what they're told and following the rules they are given.

That rule sounds like it means to apply to situations when players determine for themselves that they want to have a side wager on their "match" within the tournament.  Even then I can't see how it still wouldn't be possible.  Just make sure to follow all stroke play rules and then tally up who wins the most holes at the end.  What's so hard about that??

[sinned123]

I can only say this is a "IN CLUB" way we play for the GCNJ... it makes our matches ...interesting to say the least...

[David in FL]

Not sure how the rule that the players are disqualified from the stroke play competition is applied when that is how the league is run.  There is a league a few of my friends play in that does the same thing.  They're not deciding to play match play competition during a stroke play tournament, they are just doing what they're told and following the rules they are given. That rule sounds like it means to apply to situations when players determine for themselves that they want to have a side wager on their "match" within the tournament.  Even then I can't see how it still wouldn't be possible.  Just make sure to follow all stroke play rules and then tally up who wins the most holes at the end.  What's so hard about that??

Yep. We do the same thing within our group all the time. We play a big stableford across the entire field, but play individual 4-ball matches within each 4-some.....with some allowances that recognize that the stroke play field must be protected. No conceded putts as an example. Wrong? Technically, but a pretty easy work-around.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Such confusion can never be resolved when trying to mix match and stroke play.  They are inherently incompatible.  Rule 33-1:

Not sure how the rule that the players are disqualified from the stroke play competition is applied when that is how the league is run.  There is a league a few of my friends play in that does the same thing.  They're not deciding to play match play competition during a stroke play tournament, they are just doing what they're told and following the rules they are given.

That rule sounds like it means to apply to situations when players determine for themselves that they want to have a side wager on their "match" within the tournament.  Even then I can't see how it still wouldn't be possible.  Just make sure to follow all stroke play rules and then tally up who wins the most holes at the end.  What's so hard about that??

How do you treat loss of hole penalties?  Or order of play violations?  Or any of a half dozen other situations where the two forms of play are incompatible.  The rule is there to prohibit any sort of mixed competition, period.  Such a competition requires that the players waive or modify several rules of golf, and that is prohibited in Rule 1-3.  This is also why there are the special considerations in the handicap manual for unfinished or unplayed holes to allow posting of match play scores without having to modify any rules.

It's one thing if it's done in a casual setting, but it's just wrong when done under the auspices of a "committee" sanction.