Is "ready" golf against the rules?

[DrvFrShow]

To sum up the posts from @saevel25 and @Lihu:

in match play, if you play out of turn, your opponent can elect to have you replay the shot.

in stroke play, if the committee determines your group collectively made an agreement to play out of turn to give someone an unfair advantage, they can disqualify you.

Yeah, but in match play you only do that if your opponent makes a decent shot. If they slice the ball into deep rough? Well, I'll let them play that one.

[Asheville]

Acer,

I'm aware there is no penalty on a case by case basis. In fact, it could even happen that players NEVER follow the correct order of play and wouldn't be penalized.

My argument that an AGREEMENT to "play ready golf" (not on a case by case basis) is an agreement to exclude the operation of Rule 10-2.

Wendy, do you think that a "tacit" agreement such as the casual statement in the locker room such as, "Everyone in our group of 30 players on Tuesdays and Fridays seems to play ready golf," might be acceptable?

I believe that the USGA wouldn't approve of the "explicit" statement on the first tee by the guy handing out the scorecards saying, "Hey, everybody, you're all to play ready golf throughout today's round."

ps I've read your position on this issue on another site a few years ago.

[Missouri Swede]

I believe that the USGA wouldn't approve of the "explicit" statement on the first tee by the guy handing out the scorecards saying, "Hey, everybody, you're all to play ready golf throughout today's round."

The scorecard at my local course explicitly says to play ready golf.

[Asheville]

Uff da!

[DrvFrShow]

There's a sign over the desk that says "Play 'ready golf.'"

But if you're playing in a tournament, I would think tournament rules override that.

[Rulesman]

There's a sign over the desk that says "Play 'ready golf.'"

But if you're playing in a tournament, I would think tournament rules override that.

If there is a conflict, they do.

[Wendy Dominick]

To all,

At the risk of repeating myself, I'll make another attempt to clarify my thoughts on this. There's a difference between playing out of turn when it's convenient to speed up play( I'm all for this) and making an explicit agreement with your fellow competitors that you'll play "ready golf".

May I present a scenario? Players have agreed to play "ready golf". For the first few holes they mostly or entirely play according to honor on the tee and by who's away. When they reach the fifth hole, a par 3, player A has the honor and player D should play last. There is much to be learned by watching the others play...wind, effect of the elevation, roll etc. Player A says to the others, "You seem ready, go ahead,  Player D  wants to play according to honors. What's happened to the "ready golf" agreement? What are D's rights? How should this be resolved? It certainly would be quicker if they all just teed off in the prescribed order!

When someone suggests to me that we agree to play ready golf I reply that we should all try to be ready when it's our turn. That doesn't mean that we can't play out of turn when it makes sense and will speed play, but I avoid any agreement that I feel is likely in breach of 1-3.

One more thing. Rule 1-3 says "Player must not agree to exclude the operation of any Rule or to waive any penalty incurred." Although there is usually no penalty for playing out of turn, an agreement of this sort is waiving the operation of Rule 10-2.

[iacas]

At the risk of repeating myself, I'll make another attempt to clarify my thoughts on this. There's a difference between playing out of turn when it's convenient to speed up play( I'm all for this) and making an explicit agreement with your fellow competitors that you'll play "ready golf".

May I present a scenario? Players have agreed to play "ready golf". For the first few holes they mostly or entirely play according to honor on the tee and by who's away. When they reach the fifth hole, a par 3, player A has the honor and player D should play last. There is much to be learned by watching the others play...wind, effect of the elevation, roll etc. Player A says to the others, "You seem ready, go ahead,  Player D  wants to play according to honors. What's happened to the "ready golf" agreement? What are D's rights? How should this be resolved? It certainly would be quicker if they all just teed off in the prescribed order!

When someone suggests to me that we agree to play ready golf I reply that we should all try to be ready when it's our turn. That doesn't mean that we can't play out of turn when it makes sense and will speed play, but I avoid any agreement that I feel is likely in breach of 1-3.

One more thing. Rule 1-3 says "Player must not agree to exclude the operation of any Rule or to waive any penalty incurred." Although there is usually no penalty for playing out of turn, an agreement of this sort is waiving the operation of Rule 10-2.

I disagree that saying "let's play ready golf today" constitutes an agreement to waive a Rule of Golf. That's what this boils down to for you, it seems. Yes?

Ready golf often means what you said: be ready, but if someone is still putting their rain gear on, or cleaning their club, or looking for a ball, another player can choose to hit his ball instead. It does not mean that a player is otherwise ready and purposefully delays his own play and encourages others to go first. I agree that such behavior would be to gain an advantage and thus penalized with a DQ.

If, however, A forgot his wedge on the last green and wants to run back to get it, the other players are welcome to hit (forgoing their own tiny advantage of watching A hit the ball) or wait for him at their discretion. In that case players B, C, and D are making a choice to give up a tiny advantage in order to keep up the pace of play.

I do not agree that ready golf is, by and large, an agreement to waive the Rules of Golf. PGA Tour players do it fairly frequently. They are "ready" to play, obey honors on the tee (though they have hit out of order on the tee because one player is late to get out of a restroom, for example), and other circumstances (like changing out of rain gear).

[Fourputt]

I think that sometimes we get too tied up by overthinking a relatively irrelevant detail and missing the overall point.  Ask yourself "Why is there no penalty for playing out of turn?"  And then look at the way that even the USGA encourages ready golf.  Maybe the lack of a penalty is because the ruling bodies want to encourage prompt play , regardless of who is away or who has honor.

There are many instances where the rules specifically caution against delaying play, while they never really dwell on the issue of order of play outside of Rule 10.  There are penalties associated with undue delay, yet none with playing out of order.  I take that difference as being a significant clue as to the thought processes of the ruling bodies.  There is more concern with pace of play than with order of play, and encouraging ready golf is one way of addressing that concern.

[rogolf]

I'm siding with Wendy on this issue - there is a difference between agreeing (beforehand) to waive the operation of a Rule of golf and doing so incidentally, even purposefully, during a round.  It may be a subtle difference, but it is a difference nonetheless.  I also agree with her view that players should "play when ready" providing, of course, that it doesn't interfere with the person that is away.  And I'm all for improving the pace of play, but "ready golf" isn't the only way of doing that - as she says "get ready to play when it's your turn."  It's encouraging to see that the announcers on the LPGA telecast this weekend are discussing pace of play and how/when to get ready (certainly the leader is very, very slow).

[iacas]

I'm siding with Wendy on this issue - there is a difference between agreeing (beforehand) to waive the operation of a Rule of golf and doing so incidentally, even purposefully, during a round.  It may be a subtle difference, but it is a difference nonetheless.

I disagree, because then that puts you in the position of trying to parse what someone means when they say "Hey, let's all strive to play ready golf today." For all you know, they may mean what you said: be ready to play when it's your turn to play. When occasionally someone plays a shot out of turn in the interests of keeping up pace of play and without anyone clearly gaining an advantage, it would be exactly like how people from the PGA Tour and everywhere else plays.

Plus, players are not agreeing to play out of turn to give someone an advantage.

And…, as was already mentioned in this thread :

10-2c/2

Competitors in Stroke Play Agree to Play Out of Turn But Not for Purpose of Giving One of Them an Advantage

Q. In stroke play, A and B agree to play out of turn at the 10th hole to save time. There is no penalty under Rule 10-2c because they did not do so in order to give one of them an advantage. However, are they liable to disqualification under Rule 1-3 for agreeing to exclude the operation of Rule 10-2a or 10-2b as the case may be?

A. No. Rule 10-2c specifically governs and permits the procedure in stroke play. Accordingly, Rule 1-3 does not apply. As to match play, see Decision 10-1c/3 .

[Golfingdad]

I disagree, because then that puts you in the position of trying to parse what someone means when they say "Hey, let's all strive to play ready golf today." For all you know, they may mean what you said: be ready to play when it's your turn to play. When occasionally someone plays a shot out of turn in the interests of keeping up pace of play and without anyone clearly gaining an advantage, it would be exactly like how people from the PGA Tour and everywhere else plays. Plus, players are not agreeing to play out of turn to give someone an advantage. And…, [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/t/78133/is-ready-golf-against-the-rules/36#post_1077599]as was already mentioned in this thread[/URL]:

10-2c/2

Competitors in Stroke Play Agree to Play Out of Turn But Not for Purpose of Giving One of Them an Advantage

Q. In stroke play, A and B agree to play out of turn at the 10th hole to save time. There is no penalty under Rule 10-2c because they did not do so in order to give one of them an advantage. However, are they liable to disqualification under Rule 1-3 for agreeing to exclude the operation of Rule 10-2a or 10-2b as the case may be?

A. No. Rule 10-2c specifically governs and permits the procedure in stroke play. Accordingly, Rule 1-3 does not apply. As to match play, see Decision 10-1c/3 .

Game, set, match. What's to debate???

[rogolf]

Game, set, match.

What's to debate???

It may seem like semantics, but do so at your own peril.  No response required.

[Asheville]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rogolf

I'm siding with Wendy on this issue - there is a difference between agreeing (beforehand) to waive the operation of a Rule of golf and doing so incidentally, even purposefully, during a round.  It may be a subtle difference, but it is a difference nonetheless.

I disagree, because then that puts you in the position of trying to parse what someone means when they say "Hey, let's all strive to play ready golf today." For all you know, they may mean what you said: be ready to play when it's your turn to play. When occasionally someone plays a shot out of turn in the interests of keeping up pace of play and without anyone clearly gaining an advantage, it would be exactly like how people from the PGA Tour and everywhere else plays.

Plus, players are not agreeing to play out of turn to give someone an advantage.

And…, as was already mentioned in this thread:

10-2c/2

Competitors in Stroke Play Agree to Play Out of Turn But Not for Purpose of Giving One of Them an Advantage

Q.In stroke play, A and B agree to play out of turn at the 10th hole to save time. There is no penalty under Rule 10-2c because they did not do so in order to give one of them an advantage. However, are they liable to disqualification under Rule 1-3 for agreeing to exclude the operation of Rule 10-2a or 10-2b as the case may be?

A.No. Rule 10-2c specifically governs and permits the procedure in stroke play. Accordingly, Rule 1-3 does not apply. As to match play, see Decision 10-1c/3.

I agree with rogolf and Wendy.

I disagree with your disagree.

[Golfingdad]

I agree with rogolf and Wendy. I disagree with your disagree. ;-)

So is the 10-2c/2 decision chopped liver?? It is a cut and dried decision on literally the EXACT thing we're talking about. Your (and rogolfs) disagreement with it disagreement flabbergasts me. ;)

[Asheville]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asheville

I agree with rogolf and Wendy.

I disagree with your disagree.

So is the 10-2c/2 decision chopped liver?? It is a cut and dried decision on literally the EXACT thing we're talking about. Your (and rogolfs) disagreement with it disagreement flabbergasts me. ;)

That Decision applies to a single stroke on a single hole. An explicit agreement to disregard a Rule, for let's say an entire round, isn't permitted. (See Wendy's posts. She has, in hand, a ruling from the USGA forbidding such.)

[Golfingdad]

That Decision applies to a single stroke on a single hole. An explicit agreement to disregard a Rule, for let's say an entire round, isn't permitted. (See Wendy's posts. She has, in hand, a ruling from the USGA forbidding such.)

What is explicit about "let's play ready golf?" Its vague and doesn't even imply that somebody would play out of turn. It's not "let's be sure to play out of turn on the 9th hole" or something to that effect.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asheville

I agree with rogolf and Wendy.

I disagree with your disagree.

So is the 10-2c/2 decision chopped liver?? It is a cut and dried decision on literally the EXACT thing we're talking about. Your (and rogolfs) disagreement with it disagreement flabbergasts me. ;)

That Decision applies to a single stroke on a single hole. An explicit agreement to disregard a Rule, for let's say an entire round, isn't permitted. (See Wendy's posts. She has, in hand, a ruling from the USGA forbidding such.)

They are still "agreeing to disregard a rule".  If it's okay in that decision then by extrapolation it should be okay anytime it isn't done to give an advantage, regardless of the location or intent.