Why is Tiger's Short Game so Bad? Does he Have the Yips?

[saevel25]

Link below was interesting news and I guess prompted Tiger's trip to Augusta. Sure it's a practice round and his home course, but a score like that seems to put him back to a solid 6-7 handicap so around par at the Masters should at least be a reasonable expectation.

http://www.golfdigest.com/blogs/the-loop/2015/04/apparently-tiger-woods-recentl.html

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[natureboy]

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[boogielicious]

Quote:

Originally Posted by saevel25

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No worries.

[Big Lex]

From another thread, where we got off topic and into Tiger's alleged yips.... [quote name="iacas" url="/t/79927/the-tiger-woods-retirement-thread/342#post_1140807"] Pros need to hit it within about 1/8" of perfect, you're right. That just goes to show you how important the technique is. If it's off a little bit, with tight lies and sticky grass, horrible results happen. That's why the average amateur can make what looks like the same exact pitching stroke and blade one, fat one, and pitch it to three feet, all in three holes. Or on the same hole! All explained by bad technique. [/quote] Couldn't any incorrectly struck shot (off center hit, contact at the wrong point of the downward arc, huge face angle error) be described as bad technique? Yes, of course...if technique is perfect for the shot at hand we expect a good result, and if technique is bad we expect a bad result. The point is how large the errors were, and how frequent. If you can fix an amateur's skilled wedge shots in 20 words, how is it that the greatest player ever with the world renowned short game with access to every technical aid and a full time coach fails to shore up his technique within one practice session? When he was learning the Harmon swing, or transitioning to the Haney swing, or later the Foley swing, there were no boned chips and amateurish pitch shots. Something was different this time. There is more to it, and more than one professional has suggested it is yips or something in that ballpark.

[dkolo]

From another thread, where we got off topic and into Tiger's alleged yips.... Couldn't any incorrectly struck shot (off center hit, contact at the wrong point of the downward arc, huge face angle error) be described as bad technique? Yes, of course...if technique is perfect for the shot at hand we expect a good result, and if technique is bad we expect a bad result. The point is how large the errors were, and how frequent. If you can fix an amateur's skilled wedge shots in 20 words, how is it that the greatest player ever with the world renowned short game with access to every technical aid and a full time coach fails to shore up his technique within one practice session? When he was learning the Harmon swing, or transitioning to the Haney swing, or later the Foley swing, there were no boned chips and amateurish pitch shots. Something was different this time. There is more to it, and more than one professional has suggested it is yips or something in that ballpark.

It's still probabilistic. Good technique doesn't guarantee a good result just as bad technique doesn't preclude a good result. The best pros have a narrower range of misses but even they won't hit the same exact shot every time if you give them a bunch of chances in a row. They'll just have less variance than someone with lousy technique.

[mmoan2]

I disagree he has the yips, his technique sucks (pic @cipher posted). Yips to me means some kind of spasm type of motion or strong mental issue. He's not in denial that it needs to get better.

I can't believe how awful that technique looks. I haven't paid much attention to his technique in more recent events, but it looks pretty choppy there. Can't find any more recent good posts of a similar shot from this year on YouTube. Anyone see one?

What's he trying to accomplish with this technique? Is it confidence that he'll be so precise that it will "work itself out eventually?" That technique looks like it leaves zero margin for error and has no rhythm to it.

[mvmac]

Can't find any more recent good posts of a similar shot from this year on YouTube. Anyone see one?

What's he trying to accomplish with this technique? Is it confidence that he'll be so precise that it will "work itself out eventually?" That technique looks like it leaves zero margin for error and has no rhythm to it.

During the Masters Golf Channel was doing live pre-tournament coverage and had the camera on Tiger hitting pitch shots for almost 15 minutes. Technique was much improved and he didn't hit any thin or fat, didn't really take any divots.

Edit: Found the video

[Rick Martin]

Short game yips often don't show up until when shot actually means something. Its common to be able to get in a groove and not have them with an entire bucket/bag.  But in his last two tournaments he hasn't shown those bladed or completely chunked shots that the did awhile ago -

You can also go a few months without them - then they come out of nowhere. So time will tell.

[iacas]

Couldn't any incorrectly struck shot (off center hit, contact at the wrong point of the downward arc, huge face angle error) be described as bad technique? Yes, of course...if technique is perfect for the shot at hand we expect a good result, and if technique is bad we expect a bad result.

Those happen now and then to other pros, and so no, they can't really be described as bad technique. A pro will occasionally hit a shank. Doesn't mean it's bad technique - just that golf is hard.

What pros will not do is hit ONLY shanks, or 80% shanks, like Tiger was doing (bad shots, not actually shanks) with his short game shots. Two very, very different things.

The point is how large the errors were, and how frequent.

Some facts:

• Tiger talked about the need to change his technique.
• His technique noticeably changed.
• The difference in results was night and day.

Yips are often seen as an almost imperceptible flinch or something near impact.

Tiger's entire backswing changed, among other things.

There's LOTS of evidence that it was technique. The only evidence that it was "yips" is "other people say it may have been."

When he was learning the Harmon swing, or transitioning to the Haney swing, or later the Foley swing, there were no boned chips and amateurish pitch shots.

Something was different this time. There is more to it, and more than one professional has suggested it is yips or something in that ballpark.

Yes, the techniques were different (Harmon to Haney was not the same as Haney to Foley, or Foley to Como), and Tiger was coming back from some a layoff after some serious injuries, too. Good for the other professionals; I disagree with them and feel fairly strongly in doing so.

Plus, you're misremembering. People thought Tiger had the putting yips in 2010-11, and his short game wasn't good then either. He talked about the same things then: "release patterns" etc. So they weren't as different as you seem to want to say.

Short game yips often don't show up until when shot actually means something. Its common to be able to get in a groove and not have them with an entire bucket/bag.  But in his last two tournaments he hasn't shown those bladed or completely chunked shots that the did awhile ago -

That's a bizarre thing to say. They showed up at his own tournament. They continued while he MCed and WDed. They were gone* in The Masters and The Players.

* They never existed to be "gone." I'm just rolling with it here.

[mmoan2]

During the Masters Golf Channel was doing live pre-tournament coverage and had the camera on Tiger hitting pitch shots for almost 15 minutes. Technique was much improved and he didn't hit any thin or fat, didn't really take any divots.

Edit: Found the video

Guess my searching skills are pretty poor :) Looks much better, though, you're right.

[Mr. Desmond]

Something was different this time. There is more to it, and more than one professional has suggested it is yips or something in that ballpark.

As @iacas stated, the yips are a flinch just before impact.

Haney has the driver yips - wrote articles on it since the late '90's. Said earlier in the year that Tiger has the yips. Too bad we can't believe Hank. The problem is Hank is not a credible source -- he no longer has a connection with Tiger, and let's face it, he is out for Hank, branding Hank, and more exposure to Hank. He says stuff to get his name out there and make more $$$ -- that's my opinion.

Let's use common sense and experience -- when people are making swing changes, and short game changes, and they are not yet second nature, they are thinking during the swing - and thinking interferes with a swing, even a short game swing. Happens to me all the time, happens to others -- one thought can kill a shot (need to trademark that).

If you listened to Tiger, during this swing conversion, he was talking about release points, etc., in his short game, and the differences with which he was dealing. That may hint at thinking during a shot -- and one thought can kill a shot (during the shot).

As Tiger stated, he spent days, weeks hitting shot after short game shot, "working my ass off" as he said, and has a no thought swing (I assume) during the swing. He has some hiccups on the course, but they are the usual bad lies, errors, etc. that every pro makes.

[Big Lex]

As Iacas stated, the yips are a flinch just before impact.

That is one example of yips. But that isn't the only one. Charles Barkley has full swing yips, and it isn't just a flinch before impact. The yips can be defined as a pervasive pattern of errors in a golf swing where the golfer loses motor control. It can be a flinch, an inability to take the club back, a tremor....it can occur on putts only, or putts and chips, or chips only, or wedge shots only, or driver only....some or all of the above....it can be present all the time, or at random, or only under pressure.... The key element is that the player feels like he has no motor control or can't suppress unwanted motor activity at some point in the swing. Butch Harmon said Tiger had the yips. Haney did the same. Harmon said that many tour players told him they thought he had the yips. I think these guys know Tiger better than we do. It's technique? Iacas says he had a student who was skulling distance wedge shots, and he said a couple of sentences to him about technique and immediately eliminated the problem. So Tiger Woods, arguably the greatest golfer ever, with one of the best short games, requires weeks of grinding practice to fix a problem that Iacas cured in an amateur in 5 minutes? Iacas's story makes sense. A huge error pattern should mean that there is a glaring issue in mechanics, easily identified and fixed. Paul Azinger and I think Faldo both said that for a player of tour caliber, fixing a problem like skulled chips - a simple swing arc issue in a small swing - should take about 10 minutes on a practice tee. So I have to wonder why it was such a problem for Tiger. It ain't the end of the world if he has the yips. They aren't uncommon, at all. Snead, Hogan, Watson, all HOF'ers, had them.

[Mr. Desmond]

That is one example of yips. But that isn't the only one. Charles Barkley has full swing yips, and it isn't just a flinch before impact.

The yips can be defined as a pervasive pattern of errors in a golf swing where the golfer loses motor control. It can be a flinch, an inability to take the club back, a tremor....it can occur on putts only, or putts and chips, or chips only, or wedge shots only, or driver only....some or all of the above....it can be present all the time, or at random, or only under pressure....

The key element is that the player feels like he has no motor control or can't suppress unwanted motor activity at some point in the swing.

Butch Harmon said Tiger had the yips. Haney did the same. Harmon said that many tour players told him they thought he had the yips. I think these guys know Tiger better than we do.

It's technique? Iacas says he had a student who was skulling distance wedge shots, and he said a couple of sentences to him about technique and immediately eliminated the problem.

So Tiger Woods, arguably the greatest golfer ever, with one of the best short games, requires weeks of grinding practice to fix a problem that Iacas cured in an amateur in 5 minutes?

Iacas's story makes sense. A huge error pattern should mean that there is a glaring issue in mechanics, easily identified and fixed. Paul Azinger and I think Faldo both said that for a player of tour caliber, fixing a problem like skulled chips - a simple swing arc issue in a small swing - should take about 10 minutes on a practice tee.

So I have to wonder why it was such a problem for Tiger. It ain't the end of the world if he has the yips. They aren't uncommon, at all. Snead, Hogan, Watson, all HOF'ers, had them.

Tiger thinks too much, and thinking too much over a ball apparently can lead to symptoms that mimic the yips.

You can see the thinking after the round, where he stumbles about attempting to explain release points, technique, etc.

Do you play golf? Do you think during the swing? Guess what happens? Something that looks like Tiger when his short game was going south. Happens to all of us who think too much.

And Haney will do and say anything for pub -- I would disregard anything Hank said.

IMHO, from the King of Overthinking, as my instructor wants to call me.

[mmoan2]

Tiger thinks too much, and thinking too much over a ball apparently can lead to symptoms that mimic the yips.

You can see the thinking after the round, where he stumbles about attempting to explain release points, technique, etc.

Do you play golf? Do you think during the swing? Guess what happens? Something that looks like Tiger when his short game was going south. Happens to all of us who think too much.

And Haney will do and say anything for pub -- I would disregard anything Hank said.

IMHO, from the King of Overthinking, as my instructor wants to call me.

I don't know that I'd say what goes on in the mind of another golfer just from what I know of him from TV. Tiger might seem like a cerebral golfer with all of his swing mechanics talk and stuff, but what goes on in anyone's mind aside from my own is at best a guess in my opinion. After seeing his technique at Phoenix on video, I think it was a mechanical flaw that led to his awful short game. Take a look at him during that event. He was stabbing at the ball like someone holding a fork pissed off at their green beans.

[Mr. Desmond]

I don't know that I'd say what goes on in the mind of another golfer just from what I know of him from TV. Tiger might seem like a cerebral golfer with all of his swing mechanics talk and stuff, but what goes on in anyone's mind aside from my own is at best a guess in my opinion. After seeing his technique at Phoenix on video, I think it was a mechanical flaw that led to his awful short game. Take a look at him during that event. He was stabbing at the ball like someone holding a fork pissed off at their green beans.

That's fair.

Although I think it is a combo of poor thinking, poor mechanics, that leads to a lack of confidence, and they feed upon each other.

[iacas]

JP, c'mon man. The yips don't just go away for eight full rounds. The technique changed appreciably. Tiger's putting suffered before when neglected, as did his short game. Was it as bad as we saw in a few rounds several months ago? No. But again, his technique noticeably changed. He said it was his technique. It changed, and he put on a short game display at Augusta National.

This basically boils down to "Butch Harmon and Hank Haney say Tiger had/has the yips" and that's what you choose to believe.

Comparing Tiger's chipping and pitching to Barkley's full swing issues? C'mon…

P.S. Seriously, disregard anything Hank Haney says about TW. Since they split he's been a blatant cad.

[Big Lex]

JP, c'mon man. .

LOL. OK....I think he has the yips. You sound as if you are sure he doesn't. And we're not getting anywhere debating it. Only Tiger himself knows for sure.

[iacas]

LOL. OK....I think he has the yips. You sound as if you are sure he doesn't. And we're not getting anywhere debating it. Only Tiger himself knows for sure.

Wouldn't you think his current coach would have an idea?