The Tiger Woods Retirement Thread

[dkolo]

How so?

Because we're talking about whether he was injured or not and we spun that off into an argument about his integrity and you offered a standard of integrity that I don't think he could ever meet. Professional integrity would essentially be the proverbial tree that falls in the forest. If we're watching him and he isn't cheating, it's because we're watching him. If we're not watching him, then we don't know that he's not cheating. I offer that he hasn't done anything that I would consider cheating or suspect (the incident at the Masters included), and I add that I don't see a track record of him pulling out of tournaments to avoid bad scores; the few times he's pulled out have turned out to have been actual injuries. I think I have to give him the benefit of the doubt of having professional integrity because he hasn't done anything to have me question it. In line with the reasons that @Golfingdad and @Deryck Griffith have mentioned, I don't feel comfortable extrapolating his personal issues onto his professional game. And, as I said earlier, I think it's a neater explanation: that his lingering injury is impacting his game rather than believing that one of the most accomplished golfers of all time is either 1) a pathological malingerer or 2) has a catastrophic case of the yips.

[David in FL]

Because we're talking about whether he was injured or not and we spun that off into an argument about his integrity and you offered a standard of integrity that I don't think he could ever meet. Professional integrity would essentially be the proverbial tree that falls in the forest. If we're watching him and he isn't cheating, it's because we're watching him. If we're not watching him, then we don't know that he's not cheating. I offer that he hasn't done anything that I would consider cheating or suspect (the incident at the Masters included), and I add that I don't see a track record of him pulling out of tournaments to avoid bad scores; the few times he's pulled out have turned out to have been actual injuries. I think I have to give him the benefit of the doubt of having professional integrity because he hasn't done anything to have me question it. In line with the reasons that @Golfingdad and @Deryck Griffith have mentioned, I don't feel comfortable extrapolating his personal issues onto his professional game. And, as I said earlier, I think it's a neater explanation: that his lingering injury is impacting his game rather than believing that one of the most accomplished golfers of all time is either 1) a pathological malingerer or 2) has a catastrophic case of the yips.

Wow, talk about missing the point....! Rather than making my point again, I'll simply ask that you read my posts, and keep them in context to the post to which I was responding.....

[dkolo]

Wow, talk about missing the point....!

Rather than making my point again, I'll simply ask that you read my posts, and keep them in context to the post to which I was responding.....

I did go back to reread them after this response, and I guess there must be a disconnect somewhere because I think my response was taking your comment pretty reasonably. If you were perhaps just playing devil's advocate with your definition of integrity as applied to Tiger, then fair enough.

[Golfingdad]

Wow, talk about missing the point....!

Rather than making my point again, I'll simply ask that you read my posts, and keep them in context to the post to which I was responding.....

If that's missing your point (he's not hurt and he's got no integrity - personal or otherwise) then you need to do a much better job of making it.

I feel like that was a really good response to what you've been saying all along.

[cristphoto]

Only?

I see that  as a huge number.

And....he's certainly a better player than 21 of them.

Which makes his odds of winning well into his 40s quite high if he's fit.

Having said that, only a fool would think he will eclipse Nicklaus in total majors won.

I think the radio discussion also said only one person (Nicklaus) had more than one major in their 40's. At this point Woods needs five majors for the record. I don't dispute his will or previous historic talent, but father time is being cruel to his health.

[David in FL]

I did go back to reread them after this response, and I guess there must be a disconnect somewhere because I think my response was taking your comment pretty reasonably. If you were perhaps just playing devil's advocate with your definition of integrity as applied to Tiger, then fair enough.

If that's missing your point (he's not hurt and he's got no integrity - personal or otherwise) then you need to do a much better job of making it.

I feel like that was a really good response to what you've been saying all along.

I wish I could take credit, but that particular definition of integrity has been used in and around the workplace for a long time.  I first heard it applied in Marine Corps over 30 years ago.  I think it's a pretty good definition, but that wasn't the really the point of the post.  I was responding to the specific statement that I quoted....

"Going back to golf, Tiger has a long enough resume that shows his integrity in the game.  Without question, he is the most filmed / watched Golfer in history.  If his "golfing" integrity (which again, is separate from his personal life) was in question, we would have come to that conclusion a LONG time ago considering the overbearing exposure he gets and that we have been forced fed in seeing. "

That statement says that we know Tiger's "golfing" integrity (whatever that means) because he's the most watched golfer of all time.  I simply said that given that very common, colloquial definition of integrity, it could be argued that we have no idea what his "golfing" integrity is.  The reason being, that by definition he could never do anything thinking that he wasn't being watched.

[cristphoto]

We can't forget that awful break on the sixth hole, final round, 2012 Open Championship.

Throw in a par at the 71st in the 2009 PGA while we're at it.

Three shots, potentially, that couldn't really made things interesting had they gone the other way for him.

While we play "what if?" one only needs to look at Nicklaus' 19 second place finishes in the majors. I'm sure a couple less lip-outs, isolated bad breaks, miraculous opponent chip-ins (Watson, Pebble Beach) and Nicklaus might have 25 or more majors.

[dkolo]

I wish I could take credit, but that particular definition of integrity has been used in and around the workplace for a long time.  I first heard it applied in Marine Corps over 30 years ago.  I think it's a pretty good definition, but that wasn't the really the point of the post.  I was responding to the specific statement that I quoted....

"Going back to golf, Tiger has a long enough resume that shows his integrity in the game.  Without question, he is the most filmed / watched Golfer in history.  If his "golfing" integrity (which again, is separate from his personal life) was in question, we would have come to that conclusion a LONG time ago considering the overbearing exposure he gets and that we have been forced fed in seeing."

That statement says that we know Tiger's "golfing" integrity (whatever that means) because he's the most watched golfer of all time.  I simply said that given that very common, colloquial definition of integrity, it could be argued that we have no idea what his "golfing" integrity is.  The reason being, that by definition he could never do anything thinking that he wasn't being watched.

Right, I understood that, and maybe I didn't come across clearly enough, but my point was that a standard like that is unfalsifiable and essentially means we could never talk about someone's integrity.

Regardless, I'd argue that, as applied to Tiger's injuries, the idea that Tiger is kept honest by virtue of being watched cuts in favor of us believing his purported injuries or discomfort because he knows how scrupulously everything he did and does will be dissected. I mean, Sportscenter did a 5 minute segment about glute activation, whether it was a thing, and how it applied to Tiger and what we saw. People earlier were arguing whether his grimacing matched up with the timing of when he realized his shots were bad. I just think that for the same reason you argue he'd never cheat because he was being watched, he would never overstate or fake an injury.

[newtogolf]

I wish I could take credit, but that particular definition of integrity has been used in and around the workplace for a long time.  I first heard it applied in Marine Corps over 30 years ago.  I think it's a pretty good definition, but that wasn't the really the point of the post.  I was responding to the specific statement that I quoted....

"Going back to golf, Tiger has a long enough resume that shows his integrity in the game.  Without question, he is the most filmed / watched Golfer in history.  If his "golfing" integrity (which again, is separate from his personal life) was in question, we would have come to that conclusion a LONG time ago considering the overbearing exposure he gets and that we have been forced fed in seeing."

That statement says that we know Tiger's "golfing" integrity (whatever that means) because he's the most watched golfer of all time.  I simply said that given that very common, colloquial definition of integrity, it could be argued that we have no idea what his "golfing" integrity is.  The reason being, that by definition he could never do anything thinking that he wasn't being watched.

I assume you question the integrity of all professional golfers that have cheated on their spouse, cheated during a competitive round of golf, or done anything else that is illegal such as drug use or DUI.  To my knowledge Tiger has been a good parent, if you have evidence otherwise (cheating doesn't make someone a bad parent imo) then I'd like to hear about it.

[David in FL]

I assume you question the integrity of all professional golfers that have cheated on their spouse, cheated during a competitive round of golf, or done anything else that is illegal such as drug use or DUI.  To my knowledge Tiger has been a good parent, if you have evidence otherwise (cheating doesn't make someone a bad parent imo) then I'd like to hear about it.

I'll make it easy on you. I question the character of anyone that has done any of the things you mention, not just pro golfers. And I absolutely believe that a spouse that cheats on the mother or father of their child is a bad parent! Gotta admit, we're drifting pretty far OT here though.

[dkolo]

I'll make it easy on you. I question the character of anyone that has done any of the things you mention, not just pro golfers.

And I absolutely believe that a spouse that cheats on the mother or father of their child is a bad parent!

Gotta admit, we're drifting pretty far OT here though.

Yeah, I'm gonna make like Tiger and retire.

[14ledo81]

Quote:

Originally Posted by newtogolf

I assume you question the integrity of all professional golfers that have cheated on their spouse, cheated during a competitive round of golf, or done anything else that is illegal such as drug use or DUI.  To my knowledge Tiger has been a good parent, if you have evidence otherwise (cheating doesn't make someone a bad parent imo) then I'd like to hear about it.

I'll make it easy on you. I question the character of anyone that has done any of the things you mention, not just pro golfers.

And I absolutely believe that a spouse that cheats on the mother or father of their child is a bad parent!

Gotta admit, we're drifting pretty far OT here though.

I was told once, "The best thing a father can do for his children is love their mother"....

I believe there is truth to those words.

[natureboy]

Sorry, but he IS healthy. Even he hasn't claimed that his prior back injury is recurring.

EVERY player I out there has stiff muscles and soreness that they work through and yes, play through. Tiger himself played, at least 36 holes in the US Open with a freaking broken leg, and won! Now, instead of heading to the PT trailer after a tough first round to see if it can't be worked out, he simply packs it in. Thats not health....that's head.

Head with the short game I give you, but not quite fair about the back IMO.

I've had sciatica and would not want to revisit it. If I had fairly recent back surgery and wished to avoid the pain that preceded it or risk it recurring, I would baby any tweaks or twinges to be smart about preserving the possibility of having a competitive (not to mention pain-free) future. Not only that, but if you haven't ever had severe back pain - you can't understand how the muscles automatically spasm to protect the spine with a history of past injury. They have a mind of their own and take a while to be 'reassured' that they can chill out again and not go into 'lockdown mode'.

[ScouseJohnny]

Quote:

EVERY player I out there has stiff muscles and soreness that they work through and yes, play through. Tiger himself played, at least 36 holes in the US Open with a freaking broken leg, and won! Now, instead of heading to the PT trailer after a tough first round to see if it can't be worked out, he simply packs it in. Thats not health....that's head.

The broken leg was seven years ago, wasn't it? There's a huge difference between 32 and 39 years of age. A 32 year old man is still a young man; a 39 year old man is middle-aged or, at least, on the cusp of middle age.

The 39 year old Tiger, now plagued with a history of back injury, is probably smart enough to work out that stubbornness with a back injury might equal the end of his career or another lengthy lay-off (which could amount to the same thing). Does he really want to risk his future career by gritting his teeth and "playing through" an injury in a non-major tournament where it was already looking as though he wouldn't be troubling the leaderboard that weekend? And it can't have been very edifying for him to rely on his playing partner to pick up his tee after every drive - clearly, there was a problem.

Withdrawing when he felt there was a problem with an area adjacent to one that has caused him severe problems in the recent past? Sounds to me that's both "health" and "[using his] head."

[Gunther]

There you go :-D . With the way that Ricky did in the Major's last year I would say he is poised to be a consistent threat to Rory.

I'd plug Speith or Day before Fowler. I don't believe he has the head to win majors nor win regular events consistently. I like the kid so not trying to rip him but he has to win a few before I'd anoint him Rory's rival.

[iacas]

Wowee.

How's the air up there on that horse, @David in FL ?

This thread is about Tiger's possible retirement, not about how judgmental some people are of, seemingly, everyone.

[Saintsmania]

If one cannot chip nor putt, they cannot compete on any professional tour, and certainly not the PGA Tour.

Plus Tiger has self-induced back injuries caused by him forgetting that he is older and can no longer make the types of full swings that he made as a 20 year old.

But if he makes these changes his swing speed will be drastically reduced thus resulting in an unacceptable driving distance that would not allow him to compete.

So he is now a professional golfer with possible career ending back injuries plus possible career ending short game problems.

If he wants to stay in the game it would be as a golf analyst on tv.

[9iron]

And his connection to those PED guys never went beyond that. While a number of athletes, mostly baseball players, were implicated in using illegal substances through Biogenesis, others' interactions with that same group were found to be lacking any impropriety, such as those who were getting platelet-rich plasma treatments.

And yet, here I was this morning driving to see a customer of mine and listening to a nationally syndicated sports talk radio show with Tiki Barber and Kennedy and they bring up Tiger as the athlete with the greatest collapse from greatness in the history of sports. Wanna know how long it to them to bring up Dr. Galea in relationship to Tiger Woods? About 30 seconds. This is today.

In the United States, Galea was charged with drug smuggling, conspiring to lie to federal agents, unlawful possession with intent to distribute and practising medicine without a licence. On July 6, 2011, Galea pleaded guilty to a lesser charge of bringing mislabelled drugs into the United States for the purpose of treating professional athletes. As part of the plea agreement, he is required to cooperate with investigators and disclose the identities of his clients and their treatments

Galea has treated Olympic athletes, baseball players, and football players. At least two of those athletes, sprinter Mark McKoy and baseball player Alex Rodriguez, known personal friend of Tiger Woods, have either admiitted to or are known PED abusers.

Pretty easy to see why Tiki Barber mentioned Dr. Galea about 30 seconds after talking about Tiger Woods.