The Tiger Woods/PED Thread

[Lihu]

lol. I dont know you or your age, do a massive muscle body build, know you have to do this without anything that could improve your performance. now that I wrote that, we all better look out cause one day we may have to use that little blue performance enhancing pill. :p.

Lol, I'll keep you in mind when I need one. :-D

[motsco]

Phil is just about the last person I would accuse of taking PEDS. :-P I don't understand the logic behind accusing people of taking PEDS, just because they changed their level of fitness? So, if I suddenly came out and stated that my average drive increased 25 yards in one month, would you accuse me of taking PEDS? Because this happened. . .without PEDS.

lol. also if you where a in my 4. and all the sudden you started booming it 25+ I would question your breakfast or checking how you use Chapstick. but I wouldn't degrade you I would join the club. but if you started scoring better. and your nerves got calmer I would suspect something. :p

[motsco]

Lol, I'll keep you in mind when I need one. :-D

lol.

[Lihu]

lol. also if you where a in my 4. and all the sudden you started booming it 25+ I would question your breakfast or checking how you use Chapstick. but I wouldn't degrade you I would join the club. but if you started scoring better. and your nerves got calmer I would suspect something. :p

Yeah, it's come up. Lol. :-D

[turtleback]

true, I should of said muscle size, both tiger and Phil looked like monsters before all the PED stuff went down, they had a lot of definition. I'm no way talking long of the tee, peds do more then make a long baller. jmo.

Phil had definition?  Really?  Funny thing I remember being irritated when people would talk about his man-boob but I do not remember anyone ever saying, "Boy, that Mickelson is really ripped isn't he?", neither back in the day nor any time recently.

[mvmac]

Not sure what the pics are suppose to illustrate but Tiger isn't a huge muscly guy. The pics verify that.

Yes he's added weight and muscle since he was in his late teens, early 20's. You do this by eating more calories than you burn and lifting heavy objects. Also, we all "fill out" as we get older, especially compared to our college days.

I'll even add this one. Again not your typical example of someone taking steroids. Just a pic of someone who lifts weights.

Here are the top ways to spot a steroid user. I would say Tiger is 0-5.

1. Big guts or distended stomach

2. Preferential development of the upper body muscles, especially lats

3. Gynecomastia or bitch tits

4. Stretch marks and/or acne

5. Unreasonably fast body transformation

[Flynavy]

I want to say no, but wouldn't be surprised to find out otherwise. I've followed Tiger from the begining and he got much bigger since his debut on the PGA tour. It's been proven that Tiger has kept secrets from those close to him in the past, so why would PED's be any different? Lance kept it a secret for 10 years. So what if Tiger did use them, is the PGA tour going to strip him of all his wins and majors???

[Shorty]

I want to say no, but wouldn't be surprised to find out otherwise. I've followed Tiger from the begining and he got much bigger since his debut on the PGA tour. It's been proven that Tiger has kept secrets from those close to him in the past, so why would PED's be any different? Lance kept it a secret for 10 years. So what if Tiger did use them, is the PGA tour going to strip him of all his wins and majors???

Armstrong did not keep his drug use a secret. Everyone in cycling knew. What he did for 10 years was maintain a campaign of terror against those who wanted him to admit it while he hid behind his charity, which was a vehicle for his NARCISSISM. (in joke)

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flynavy

I want to say no, but wouldn't be surprised to find out otherwise. I've followed Tiger from the begining and he got much bigger since his debut on the PGA tour. It's been proven that Tiger has kept secrets from those close to him in the past, so why would PED's be any different? Lance kept it a secret for 10 years. So what if Tiger did use them, is the PGA tour going to strip him of all his wins and majors???

Armstrong did not keep his drug use a secret.

Everyone in cycling knew.

What he did for 10 years was maintain a campaign of terror against those who wanted him to admit it while he hid behind his charity, which was a vehicle for his NARCISSISM. (in joke)

That is because everyone in cycling was also doping.  Riders were going to the same doctors.  It was like being in the Mob. Cycling's entire history is about gaining an advantage and every champion is suspect back to Jacques Anquetil and even earlier.  I fell for it, not just Armstrong, but Indurain, LeMond, Hinault, the whole sport which I loved.  I think they are still doping because it is entrenched in the culture of a very grueling endurance sport.

Golf is different in that it is not an endurance sport like cycling and not a strict power sport like other team sports.  There is no great advantage to getting ripped in golf IMO and certainly no advantage to doing blood doping as in cycling or cross country skiing.  Proper training techniques have come a long way and can be golf specific.  This is why skinny tall guys, short guys, big fat guys, and men who have the build of couch potatoes can win at golf.  Just look at the top 10 in the OWGR.  Same for women.  Inbee Park, Stacey Lewis, Lydia Ko.  They do not have bodies of Olympic soccer champs.

[Abu3baid]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dkolo

There are a lot of guys on Tour. Considering how few events Tiger plays, and that many of those are limited field events, I can imagine a lot of guys on Tour know Tiger Woods about as well as you or I do. The article mentions only 8% of guys polled knew of Tiger's marital indiscretions before they became public. I imagine Tiger would be more discreet about this sort of illicit stuff.

One thing we agree on is that this guy would have been discrete about it.

I just want to quickly examine some of the news out there.

Quote:

In 2011, Galea pled guilty to smuggling human growth hormone and other drugs into the United States to treat professional athletes. Both Woods and Galea have said that Woods only received only legal platelet-rich plasma therapy from Galea.

so we have a fact that the witch doctor plead guilty to not only smuggling the growth hormone but the reason why it was smuggled was to treat professionals like A-Rod & others.  duh why else?

Released Tuesday, Blood Sport: Alex Rodriguez, Biogenesis and the Quest to End Baseball’s Steroid Era , co-authored by Tim Elfrink of the Miami New Times and Gus-Garcia Roberts of Newsday , claims that the Canadian sports doctor Anthony Galea who treated Rodriguez also visited Woods 14 times between January and August 2009 and charged Woods a total of $76,012 as he recovered from knee surgery following his 2008 U.S. Open victory.

starting in Jan 2009 Dr. Galea visited woods 14 times and charged him $5,429.43 per visit (for blood spinning of course)

Quote:

The book also reports that according to the Florida Department of Health, Dr. Mark Lindsay, an associate of Galea's who also treated Rodriguez, visited Woods' 49 times from September 2008 to October 2009 and charged Woods' $118,979.

One of Galea associates Dr. Mark Lindsay also visited woods from Sept 2008 to Oct 2009 "49" times and charged him $2,428.14 per visit (also for blood spinning)

Dr. Lindsay is also linked to Balco and worked with M. Jones and B. Romonowski

Haney said:

"I was there and watched the whole procedure," Haney said. "There was never anything that went into Tiger Woods's body that didn't come out of his body. They take blood out, they spin it, they inject the plasma back in. I totally believe that Tiger Woods has never taken any performance-enhancing drug

Haney said:

“I was there three or four of the times Anthony Galea was there, and I didn’t see anything,” Haney said. “I can only talk about what I saw. I never saw Tiger do anything like that. Even if he did, I’m not sure how it would help him. He’s bigger and stronger from all the working out he does, but he’s not faster or longer because of it. And it’s not like he’s avoiding injuries.”

It was mentioned that it was my opinion vs. the opinion of Haney who was "THERE" and I wasn't.  I will say this again, it is not like Haney is going to get invited to sterilize the area is he?  He was there yes, but how many times?  According to him he was there 3 or 4 times that "Anthony Galea" was there and that is out of 14 visits.. So, what about the other 10 times that Haney wasn't there?  Don't we have to look at the motive of the player, and the "opportunity" to go ahead with something that will help?  I'm not even questioning Tigers size, because when you take PED as a golfer you aren't looking to bulk up as Randy Myers mentions in Golf Digest.. "Barely testable, doesn't bulk you up and it builds explosive muscles"

From Golf Digest

"The best players aren't going to be testing positive for steroids," says Randy Myers, who trains more than a dozen tour players. "Small doses of impact drugs -- HGH, things like that -- that's what the modern athlete is doing. It's barely testable, and it doesn't bulk you up. It builds explosive muscle, which is what all golfers want."

Haney has it wrong anyway, just read what the guy said...  I never saw Tiger do anything and even if he did I'm not sure how it would help him.. Well, maybe you should read up on it so that you can avoid looking foolish.  Why not start with it will help him heal faster so that he is able to get back to competition sooner?  What about building more explosive muscles like Randy Myers mentions above?  No one cares that he is bigger and stronger from all the working out he does (i.e. spearfishing and running around in combat boots)..  One thing Haney does get right is that he hasn't been avoiding injuries, but what's the relationship between PED and avoiding injury I will never know.. PED can help with healing faster from injury, but it doesn't work to help avoid injury as far as I know!

Is there enough circumstantial evidence to at least not automatically exclude the possibility that Tiger used PED?  Yes there is in my opinion.

The guy had motive

The guy had opportunity

The guy doesn't have the benefit of the doubt in terms of character after the news that came out

so, yeah I think I'm justified in my opinion and even if I can't say yes for sure, I think there is at least an 80% chance that it is a yes!

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abu3baid

Quote:

Originally Posted by dkolo

There are a lot of guys on Tour. Considering how few events Tiger plays, and that many of those are limited field events, I can imagine a lot of guys on Tour know Tiger Woods about as well as you or I do. The article mentions only 8% of guys polled knew of Tiger's marital indiscretions before they became public. I imagine Tiger would be more discreet about this sort of illicit stuff.

One thing we agree on is that this guy would have been discrete about it.

I just want to quickly examine some of the news out there.

Quote:

In 2011, Galea pled guilty to smuggling human growth hormone and other drugs into the United States to treat professional athletes. Both Woods and Galea have said that Woods only received only legal platelet-rich plasma therapy from Galea.

so we have a fact that the witch doctor plead guilty to not only smuggling the growth hormone but the reason why it was smuggled was to treat professionals like A-Rod & others.  duh why else?

Released Tuesday, Blood Sport: Alex Rodriguez, Biogenesis and the Quest to End Baseball’s Steroid Era , co-authored by Tim Elfrink of the Miami New Times and Gus-Garcia Roberts of Newsday , claims that the Canadian sports doctor Anthony Galea who treated Rodriguez also visited Woods 14 times between January and August 2009 and charged Woods a total of $76,012 as he recovered from knee surgery following his 2008 U.S. Open victory.

starting in Jan 2009 Dr. Galea visited woods 14 times and charged him $5,429.43 per visit (for blood spinning of course)

Quote:

The book also reports that according to the Florida Department of Health, Dr. Mark Lindsay, an associate of Galea's who also treated Rodriguez, visited Woods' 49 times from September 2008 to October 2009 and charged Woods' $118,979.

One of Galea associates Dr. Mark Lindsay also visited woods from Sept 2008 to Oct 2009 "49" times and charged him $2,428.14 per visit (also for blood spinning)

Dr. Lindsay is also linked to Balco and worked with M. Jones and B. Romonowski

Haney said:

"I was there and watched the whole procedure," Haney said. "There was never anything that went into Tiger Woods's body that didn't come out of his body. They take blood out, they spin it, they inject the plasma back in. I totally believe that Tiger Woods has never taken any performance-enhancing drug

Haney said:

“I was there three or four of the times Anthony Galea was there, and I didn’t see anything,” Haney said. “I can only talk about what I saw. I never saw Tiger do anything like that. Even if he did, I’m not sure how it would help him. He’s bigger and stronger from all the working out he does, but he’s not faster or longer because of it. And it’s not like he’s avoiding injuries.”

It was mentioned that it was my opinion vs. the opinion of Haney who was "THERE" and I wasn't.  I will say this again, it is not like Haney is going to get invited to sterilize the area is he?  He was there yes, but how many times?  According to him he was there 3 or 4 times that "Anthony Galea" was there and that is out of 14 visits.. So, what about the other 10 times that Haney wasn't there?  Don't we have to look at the motive of the player, and the "opportunity" to go ahead with something that will help?  I'm not even questioning Tigers size, because when you take PED as a golfer you aren't looking to bulk up as Randy Myers mentions in Golf Digest.. "Barely testable, doesn't bulk you up and it builds explosive muscles"

From Golf Digest

"The best players aren't going to be testing positive for steroids," says Randy Myers, who trains more than a dozen tour players. "Small doses of impact drugs -- HGH, things like that -- that's what the modern athlete is doing. It's barely testable, and it doesn't bulk you up. It builds explosive muscle, which is what all golfers want."

Haney has it wrong anyway, just read what the guy said...  I never saw Tiger do anything and even if he did I'm not sure how it would help him.. Well, maybe you should read up on it so that you can avoid looking foolish.  Why not start with it will help him heal faster so that he is able to get back to competition sooner?  What about building more explosive muscles like Randy Myers mentions above?  No one cares that he is bigger and stronger from all the working out he does (i.e. spearfishing and running around in combat boots)..  One thing Haney does get right is that he hasn't been avoiding injuries, but what's the relationship between PED and avoiding injury I will never know.. PED can help with healing faster from injury, but it doesn't work to help avoid injury as far as I know!

Is there enough circumstantial evidence to at least not automatically exclude the possibility that Tiger used PED?  Yes there is in my opinion.

The guy had motive

The guy had opportunity

The guy doesn't have the benefit of the doubt in terms of character after the news that came out

so, yeah I think I'm justified in my opinion and even if I can't say yes for sure, I think there is at least an 80% chance that it is a yes!

I'm not a doctor, or pharmacist, or forensic toxicologist or Crime Scene Investigator, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night!

[RussUK]

3. Gynecomastia or bitch tits

Is that a technical term?

I cant see him being the type to use PED's. For one he certainly doesnt have "bitch tits" (not that i make a habit of looking closely!) and despite his past marital problems he is still viewed as a top golfer and a brand name in his own right. Would he really want to risk all that by popping some happy pills?

now, Deer antler spray, ive heard is good stuff

[ChrisP]

This is one of those topics where it's like you want to believe he didn't, but your gut kinda tells you he might have. And it's one reason why I kind of hate talking about it. It's just kind of a sign of the times where everyone is really looked at with suspicion, and Tiger moreso because of his connections with Galea, his friendship with A-Rod, his body breaking down the way it has and the fact anyone who has muscle mass is looked at in a questionable manner. Welcome to the 21st century.

I will say Haney defending him has changed my mind more to him not doing them because I kinda feel like he would know if he was doing something and Haney would not be afraid to come out with it. But then again, everything may have been done in private and I don't think he took them before 2008. I know some guys that have had ACL tears that have taken HGH to recover more quickly.

Bottom line is he's innocent...there's not enough out there to even remotely say he's guilty. It's just a matter of if you believe it or not.

So put me in the "I don't know" category.

[Deryck Griffith]

Originally Posted by saevel25

Also it allows them to heal faster in terms of muscle wear and tear.

So I don't see steroids really helping him in the area he had injuries. That isn't to say he would not have taken them. I just doubt it. Nothing suggested to me that he did take them.

Precisely.  Every injury Tiger has had he has come back from in a standard amount of time.  I don't recall him having any spectacular recoveries that happened in an expedient fashion or the discussion of him coming back "before anyone expected" he would.

I've played baseball at a high level and have seen steroid use first hand.  I never even came close to the stuff in terms of taking it but I certainly can say the results I've seen are WAY more impressive in terms of recovery times and bulk / muscle size than what we have seen with Tiger.  The negative effects to PEDs (see Mvmac's post) are also ones that Tiger doesn't have.  All of this comes down to Tiger being a gym rat and his size is associated to that.  Does he probably have tons of the best Whey Protein available which he gobbles after workouts?  Yes.  Does he probably take a ton of supplements that are legal but work wonders because he can afford it and has the best nutritionists available to man? Yes.  That's really what I believe all that it is and that's what I believe his size is associated to (which, speaking of his size, isn't that big).

People I have heard that compare him to football players and him having the body of a tight end, running back, etc are OUT OF THEIR MINDS to believe that.  Tiger at his biggest would get owned on the football field.  Tiger is a great athlete yes, but come on people...

[iacas]

I have seen them in person. just for giggles look at mark McGwire and others before Ped and after body sizes, and maybe injuries B&A.; you can go back in time, with books about sports and read how in almost every sport there was a pill or something that helped keep a leg up, players could claim stress, fatigue , or just trying to be better. i believe a lot of what was called greenies where used back in the day.

I don't believe you. That, or you never saw Mark McGwire in person.

Tiger has never, ever, ever looked anything like Mark McGwire or Barry Bonds. Phil even less so.

Precisely.  Every injury Tiger has had he has come back from in a standard amount of time.  I don't recall him having any spectacular recoveries that happened in an expedient fashion or the discussion of him coming back "before anyone expected" he would.

I've played baseball at a high level and have seen steroid use first hand.  I never even came close to the stuff in terms of taking it but I certainly can say the results I've seen are WAY more impressive in terms of recovery times and bulk / muscle size than what we have seen with Tiger.  The negative effects to PEDs (see Mvmac's post) are also ones that Tiger doesn't have.  All of this comes down to Tiger being a gym rat and his size is associated to that.  Does he probably have tons of the best Whey Protein available which he gobbles after workouts?  Yes.  Does he probably take a ton of supplements that are legal but work wonders because he can afford it and has the best nutritionists available to man? Yes.  That's really what I believe all that it is and that's what I believe his size is associated to (which, speaking of his size, isn't that big).

People I have heard that compare him to football players and him having the body of a tight end, running back, etc are OUT OF THEIR MINDS to believe that.  Tiger at his biggest would get owned on the football field.  Tiger is a great athlete yes, but come on people...

Words from someone who has a lot more knowledge of the subject than virtually anyone else here. Thanks @Deryck Griffith .

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by motsco

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

I don't think you ever saw Tiger Woods or Phil Mickelson (who had man boobs and a gut) in person.

I have seen them in person. just for giggles look at mark McGwire and others before Ped and after body sizes, and maybe injuries B&A.; you can go back in time, with books about sports and read how in almost every sport there was a pill or something that helped keep a leg up, players could claim stress, fatigue , or just trying to be better. i believe a lot of what was called greenies where used back in the day.

I'm just saying what my eyes have seen. I'm not trying to discredit anybody. to tell you the truth it makes no difference to me if tiger did them. I'm sure there was dabbling with stuf by the greats of the past. a cigarette could almost be considered performance enhancing.

if tiger did them or not none of us would know until the great book comes out.

now, look at who he hung around with pre peds. and who he hangs with now. there could be a good debate for that? but we could debate DJ's coke habit that is now just a alcohol problem. but this is tigers thread :).

Phil is just about the last person I would accuse of taking PEDS.

I don't understand the logic behind accusing people of taking PEDS, just because they changed their level of fitness?

So, if I suddenly came out and stated that my average drive increased 25 yards in one month, would you accuse me of taking PEDS? Because this happened. . .without PEDS.

I watched my brother and his best friend start lifting after high school.  Both of them developed in remarkable fashion solely from working out, not from any drugs.  They didn't even use such nutritional additives as wheat germ.  They just ate normally and worked out 3 or 4 times a week and in a year they had gone from slender school boy bodies to really fit athletic builds, even more so than Tiger is now.  Thinking that he could only get his muscular build by taking PEDs is nothing more than just letting your ignorance show.

[3putter]

I have seen them in person. just for giggles look at mark McGwire and others before Ped and after body sizes, and maybe injuries B&A.; you can go back in time, with books about sports and read how in almost every sport there was a pill or something that helped keep a leg up, players could claim stress, fatigue , or just trying to be better. i believe a lot of what was called greenies where used back in the day.

I'm just saying what my eyes have seen. I'm not trying to discredit anybody. to tell you the truth it makes no difference to me if tiger did them. I'm sure there was dabbling with stuf by the greats of the past. a cigarette could almost be considered performance enhancing.

if tiger did them or not none of us would know until the great book comes out.

now, look at who he hung around with pre peds. and who he hangs with now. there could be a good debate for that? but we could debate DJ's coke habit that is now just a alcohol problem. but this is tigers thread :).

Nope, you probably haven't or you have no clue about muscle definition. The fact that you claim they both had "a lot" of definition really puts your claim under suspicion. Secondly, are you aware that one can gain muscle by going to the gym? It's not just a myth, it actually happens. It's not like either of these two gained any significant amount of muscle under an unreasonable time frame.  As many have said earlier, yes Tiger gained weight since his pro debut, but show me 20 who hadn't. Do you really expect a lanky young guy who's into fitness to really remain lanky through the years?

[boogielicious]

http://www.gocomics.com/monty/2015/02/16