The Tiger Woods/PED Thread

[boogielicious]

Quote:

I fell for it, not just Armstrong, but Indurain, LeMond, Hinault, the whole sport which I loved

LeMond rode clean.

Off topic.

[3putter]

There is direct evidence that Tiger had an ongoing relationship with Dr. Galea and his assistant Dr. Lindsay. There is also direct evidence that Galea is a PED dispenser. A convicted PED dispenser at that, and that Galea's intended targets for his PED dispensing are competitive athletes.

Tiger's relationship with Galea then is circumstantial evidence of PED use. Circumstantial evidence is evidence that relies on an inference to connect it to a conclusion of fact. Direct evidence that it snowed In Pennsylvania early Tuesday would be the testimony of someone who watched the snow actually fall, but indirect evidence would be the appearance of fresh snow itself.

The logic here is astoundingly defective, it's not even funny. It's almost like you don't understand both the definition and analogy you gave. Tiger's known relationship with Galea would be circumstantial evidence in a case where Tiger was found using PED but no direct evidence is found that he got it through Galea. Then you can say well Galea is a known PED dispenser to competitive athletes, Tiger knows him and has a working relationship with him. Direct evidence would be some sort of DIRECT connection of Galea dispensing it to him.

Also, pretty much every decent Ortho practice in Central Florida does PRP on site. My own Ortho doctor here in Pennsylvania has suggested I do a series (meaning 3 to 4) of PRP treatments. So why does Tiger feel the need to leave all the top notch doctors in Florida who have the ability to treat him, and when he makes that decision, why does he then choose an obscure Canadian doctor with a history of dispensing PED's? If Tiger wanted to make people believe he was taking PED's, he succeeded. His fan base is seemingly impervious to the circumstial evidence surrounding Tiger and PED's.

He flew to Utah despite having several extremely competent spinal/Neuro surgeons in the Florida area. Was he there for some super-PED back surgery too?

[ScouseJohnny]

Quote:

Off topic.

[Shrug] So bloody what? Some might say casting aspersions on a cyclist's integrity in a golf forum is prima facie "off topic" in the first place. To be honest, I'm slightly surprised this thread exists at all (a thread established to encourage discourse on unproven rumours of cheating through use of performance enhancing drugs by a top athlete, when, so far as I know, no proceedings have ever been brought against that player by the professional association under whose rules he competes).

[Golfingdad]

[Shrug] So bloody what? Some might say casting aspersions on a cyclist's integrity in a golf forum is prima facie "off topic" in the first place. To be honest, I'm slightly surprised this thread exists at all (a thread established to encourage discourse on unproven rumours of cheating through use of performance enhancing drugs by a top athlete, when, so far as I know, no proceedings have ever been brought against that player by the professional association under whose rules he competes).

Actually, I believe it was created for the exact opposite reason.  So the ones who want to cast aspersions could see how in the minority they actually are.  That said, I'm shocked that almost 15% of the people who have voted so far actually believe he took PEDs.

[9iron]

Blows my mind...

When people say "Lebron James could be a tight end if he didn't play basketball," I say, "that's probably a true statement."  Why?  Well because Lebron James is 6'8" / 250+ LBS.  That's more or less the size you have to be in order to play the tight end in the NFL.  Heck Tom Brady (who looks like an average guy on a football field surrounded by muscle monsters) is 6'4" /225 Lbs.  That 3 inches taller and about 40lbs heavier than Tiger at his peak.  People need to use their heads.

Other examples

Payton Manning is 6'5" / 230lbs (that's 4 inches taller than Tiger and 45lbs heavier)

Scrawny younger brother Eli Manning is 6'4" / 218lbs (that's 3 inches taller than Tiger and 33lbs heavier)

Is Brady or the Manning brothers on PEDs?  Why not, they are huge monsters...

Thanks for posting. I honestly have no idea what people are seeing when they look at Tiger.

I have no earthly idea why anyone believes Tiger could be a Tight End. He is not big enough to be a TE. In 2006 when he won at Liverpool I believed he was close to being big enough to play safety or corner, and many golf commentators wrote things like this back in those days.

You've failed to demonstrate that. All you've proven is something we've known for a long time: Tiger went to Galea for medical services of some kind. You need more evidence to support your PED argument, otherwise all you're doing is making assumptions and trying to find arguments to prove your conclusions.

This also fails as evidence of PED use. It's logical that Tiger would go to a doctor based on A-Rod's recommendation. They're both world class athletes. It's illogical to assume Tiger used PEDs because A-Rod did. There is a lot of evidence that proves A-Rod did PEDs, including numerous failed drug tests. Nobody condemned A-Rod simply because he went to Galea, as people here seem to be doing.

There is enough there with Dr. Galea's conviction for me to believe it is possible for Tiger to have taken PED's from him. You are free to feel otherwise, fine by me.

Both Galea and Tiger (and Haney) have stated that the visits were for platelet-rich plasma injections. I'll just assume that means nothing to you, though.

Why would that mean anything to me? I wouldn't expect them to just admit Tiger was using PED's. I think they'd have to be dragged into court to admit to something like that.

It seems to me that your "connection" boils down to "I don't like Tiger Woods." Galea had several other patients who have been subject to far more stringent testing and who did not ever come under suspicion of PEDs. There's a fact that serves to break up your "connection."

He is also a guy who had a lot of athletes test positive, which is far more revelant to me as to the question of this thread, which asks what people believe. I don't have to prove anything here. No one does. The question isn't Do you have absolute proof Tiger took PED's, it is Do you believe he took PED's. I don't know with certainty one way or the other, but I hardly think you'd hire a PED dispenser like Galea for PRP treatments and then be shocked that some people connected you to PED's.

If the cops are surveilling a known drug house and they see the same guy come and go every night for three weeks but have absolutely nothing else to go on do you not believe the detectives will think they have probable cause to stop the guy to see if he has drugs on him?

He flew to Utah despite having several extremely competent spinal/Neuro surgeons in the Florida area. Was he there for some super-PED back surgery too?

I figured someone would bring this up, but this too is a non starter. The Surgeon In Utah is not known for dispensing PED's, he is known for doing back surgeries.

[Golfingdad]

There is enough there with Dr. Galea's conviction for me to believe it is possible for Tiger to have taken PED's from him. You are free to feel otherwise, fine by me.

Of course it is possible!!  You think that there is anybody here that would disagree with THAT statement?

But you're not saying that, you're saying that he knew the doctor, the doctor did illegal stuff, ergo, he's obviously guilty.  That's silly and, frankly, irresponsible.

By your logic, I could say that Marcus Allen and/or Robert Kardashian had a hand in the Brown/Simpson murders because they were friends with OJ.

[Deryck Griffith]

Blows my mind...

When people say "Lebron James could be a tight end if he didn't play basketball," I say, "that's probably a true statement."  Why?  Well because Lebron James is 6'8" / 250+ LBS.  That's more or less the size you have to be in order to play the tight end in the NFL.  Heck Tom Brady (who looks like an average guy on a football field surrounded by muscle monsters) is 6'4" /225 Lbs.  That 3 inches taller and about 40lbs heavier than Tiger at his peak.  People need to use their heads.

Other examples

Payton Manning is 6'5" / 230lbs (that's 4 inches taller than Tiger and 45lbs heavier)

Scrawny younger brother Eli Manning is 6'4" / 218lbs (that's 3 inches taller than Tiger and 33lbs heavier)

Is Brady or the Manning brothers on PEDs?  Why not, they are huge monsters...

Thanks for posting. I honestly have no idea what people are seeing when they look at Tiger.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 9iron

I have no earthly idea why anyone believes Tiger could be a Tight End. He is not big enough to be a TE. In 2006 when he won at Liverpool I believed he was close to being big enough to play safety or corner, and many golf commentators wrote things like this back in those days.

I have heard many mention Tiger could play Tight End, Running Back and I to have also have heard the Safety / Corner comments.

Just so you know, Tiger spots most Cornerbacks and Safeties in the NFL, on average, 25-35 lbs.  With that being fact, he definitely would have to take PEDs to match that :P

[saevel25]

I have heard many mention Tiger could play Tight End, Running Back and I to have also have heard the Safety / Corner comments.

Just so you know, Tiger spots most Cornerbacks and Safeties in the NFL, on average, 25-35 lbs.  With that being fact, he definitely would have to take PEDs to match that :P

Tiger is 6'1" tall and about 185-195 lbs (185 lbs on his PGA Tour profile page)

This was from 2011, average body types for NFL

NFL QB's: 6'3" 220 lbs

Safeties: 6" 205 lbs

WR: 6'1" 195 lbs

CB: 5'11" 180 lbs

RB: 5'11" 215 lbs

LB: 6'2" 245 lbs

TE: 6'5" 250 lbs

Tiger would probably fit WR, or DB range. Tiger would have to put on about 10-20 lbs of more muscle to do so. Makes me wonder about the PED use when he's not even close to the high range of muscle mass when compared to other athletes.

I don't think he would fit the RB spot. There is something with height and weight but also strength in the legs.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deryck Griffith

I have heard many mention Tiger could play Tight End, Running Back and I to have also have heard the Safety / Corner comments.

Just so you know, Tiger spots most Cornerbacks and Safeties in the NFL, on average, 25-35 lbs.  With that being fact, he definitely would have to take PEDs to match that :P

Tiger is 6'1" tall and about 185-195 lbs (185 lbs on his PGA Tour profile page)

This was from 2011, average body types for NFL

NFL QB's: 6'3" 220 lbs

Safeties: 6" 205 lbs

WR: 6'1" 195 lbs

CB: 5'11" 180 lbs

RB: 5'11" 215 lbs

LB: 6'2" 245 lbs

TE: 6'5" 250 lbs

Tiger would probably fit WR, or DB range. Tiger would have to put on about 10-20 lbs of more muscle to do so. Makes me wonder about the PED use when he's not even close to the high range of muscle mass when compared to other athletes.

I don't think he would fit the RB spot. There is something with height and weight but also strength in the legs.

And the ability to hold the ball like a vice grip and take inordinate amounts of punishment to the body, etc.

[9iron]

Of course it is possible!!  You think that there is anybody here that would disagree with THAT statement?

But you're not saying that, you're saying that he knew the doctor, the doctor did illegal stuff, ergo, he's obviously guilty.  That's silly and, frankly, irresponsible.

By your logic, I could say that Marcus Allen and/or Robert Kardashian had a hand in the Brown/Simpson murders because they were friends with OJ.

You wanna point out where I wrote that, because I never wrote that at all.

BTW, your logic is terrible.

[iacas]

No one does. The question isn't Do you have absolute proof Tiger took PED's, it is Do you believe he took PED's.

And you believe he did despite having no real evidence to support such a claim. You believe he did by going from a very tenuous "A" and leaping all the way to "Z" simply because, it would seem, you don't like the guy.

I know what the question asks. And my opinion of your opinion is that it's lacking a foundation.

If the cops are surveilling a known drug house and they see the same guy come and go every night for three weeks but have absolutely nothing else to go on do you not believe the detectives will think they have probable cause to stop the guy to see if he has drugs on him?

Probable cause is not a conviction.

You have tenuous circumstantial evidence that does not overcome even a little doubt, let alone reasonable doubt, and you're convicting.

I figured someone would bring this up, but this too is a non starter. The Surgeon In Utah is not known for dispensing PED's, he is known for doing back surgeries.

And Galea was known for doing PRP for elite athletes. Far more well known than some random schlub in Florida. I know it's Wikipedia, but you can check the sources they link to…

Galea practices sports medicine out of the ISM Health & Wellness Center, which he serves as its director and founder. He has been published in medical journals and is the author of the book, Dr. Galea's Secrets to Optimal Health - Body and Spirit, which was published in 2007.[1] In 2003, Galea became the team physician for the Toronto Argonauts, serving as physician for the team until 2009. Galea acted as team physician for the St. Vincent Grenadine World Cup Soccer team in 2004.[1]

Galea has functioned as a sports physician for many professional competitions. In 1999, he served as a physician for the World Track and Field Championships in Seville, Spain, as well as Chief Medical Officer for Team Canada in the Maccabi Games in 2005-09. From 1990-95, Galea was responsible for the care and supervision of all participants in the Toronto Marathon.[1] He was a sports medicine physician for the du Maurier's Men's Open Tennis Championships in 1996 and the du Maurier's Women's Open Tennis Championships in 1995 and 1997, as well as for the Players International Tennis Championships in Toronto from 1991-94. From 1992-97, Galea served as a team physician for the Canadian Freestyle Ski team. He served as a team physician for Team Canada in the Olympic Winter Games in Japan in 1998.[1]

Galea was one of the first sports medicine physicians to use Platelet-rich plasma (PRP) therapy as a way to treat his patients' injuries. PRP therapy is the process of treating an injury with a concentration of the patient's own blood. Initially, the treatment was used for rehabilitation purposes by spinal surgeons and surgeons performing plastic surgery.[3] PRP may be valuable in enhancing soft-tissue repair and in wound healing.[4] Galea's arrest in 2009 for smuggling human growth hormone (HGH) into the United States raised suspicion that he might have combined HGH with his PRP therapy.[3]

Treatment of high-profile professional athletes

Galea's confirmed clients include golfer Tiger Woods, Olympic medalists Dara Torres, Mark McCoy and Donovan Bailey,[5] NFL players Jamal Lewis,[6] Javon Walker, Santana Moss and Chris Simms,[5]and figure skater Patrick Chan.[7] Major League Baseball players Alex Rodriguez, Huston Street and John Patterson have also received treatment from Galea.[8]

According to The New York Times, Galea visited Tiger Woods at the latter's Orlando, Florida home at least four times in February and March 2009 to administer PRP— designed to speed recovery from injuries,[9] and that Woods reportedly responded well to the treatment.[5]

On February 28, 2010, The New York Times reported that Galea treated New York Yankees third baseman Alex Rodriguez in March 2009 and that Rodriguez's rehabilitation from hip surgery was overseen by Dr. Mark Lindsay, an associate of Galea.[10]

Looks like a pretty good reputation to me.

[Golfingdad]

You wanna point out where I wrote that, because I never wrote that at all.

You're right, you haven't guaranteed it - but you do believe it.  That's all I meant.  Apologies for the hyperbole.

BTW, your logic is terrible.

It's not my logic, it's yours.  (Yes, I was being over the top and facetious, but the logic is the same)

Tiger knew Galea + Galea is connected with PEDs = Tiger used PEDs.  Basic transitive property.

[9iron]

You're right, you haven't guaranteed it - but you do believe it.

I believe it is highly possible. That is correct.

[billchao]

So what? A message board isn't a courtroom. Hello?

It's not a courtroom, but it [i]is[/i] a forum for discussion and debate, so if you are going to make claims and accusations, you'd be well advised to do it with evidence that supports your argument. Your claim that Tiger did PEDs simply based on a relationship with Galea is weak, and your argument that people here can't see it because we are some kind of Tiger fanboys (I'm paraphrasing, so spare me the semantics retort) is even weaker. Most of us probably don't care whether Tiger did PEDs, but we just like to see the actual evidence before we condemn him.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mvmac

Since there actually isn't any evidence that he's taken PED's, I voted no. No evidence with his physique, no claims by other players, trainers, journalist, etc. I also haven't heard any rumors/gossip from instructors I know that teach on tour.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NJpatbee

I said "no" since there is nothing to point to the fact that he used PED's.  He worked out but he did not blow up like a Barry Bonds or Mark McGuire.  He was reckless in his personal life that has forever tarnished his image as a Mr. Nice Guy, but I believe his concern about his golf legacy helped keep him free of PEDs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by misty_mountainhop

Despite my (irrational?) dislike of the persona that is Woods, there's no evidence that he's used PEDs.......is there?? OK, he bulked quite a bit at one point but nothing that wouldn't tally with simple gym use.

Just out of interest, why did the OP pose this question? Is there something out there on this topic other than the long-standing and completely unsubstantiated suggestions??

There is direct evidence that Tiger had an ongoing relationship with Dr. Galea and his assistant Dr. Lindsay. There is also direct evidence that Galea is a PED dispenser. A convicted PED dispenser at that, and that Galea's intended targets for his PED dispensing are competitive athletes.

Tiger's relationship with Galea then is circumstantial evidence of PED use. Circumstantial evidence is evidence that relies on an inference to connect it to a conclusion of fact. Direct evidence that it snowed In Pennsylvania early Tuesday would be the testimony of someone who watched the snow actually fall, but indirect evidence would be the appearance of fresh snow itself.

Circumstantial evidence is wrong as often as it's right, maybe more so.  For example:  Joe sometimes buys Slurpees at 7 Eleven.  His local 7 Eleven was robbed at 2 AM by an armed man in jeans and a red shirt.  Joe had no alibi because he says he was home in bed at that time.  The police found an empty Slurpee cup in Joe's trash.  The found jeans and a couple of red shirts in Joe's closet.  They found a pistol safely locked in a gun safe in his basement.  Based on that would you push for Joe's arrest?  Nobody except Joe is able to say definitively that he didn't do it, although a couple of friends will vouch for his character.  No one but Joe has certain knowledge of where Joe was that night.

This is circumstantial evidence which is potentially just as damning and just as bogus as what you are using to damn Tiger.  Yet I see a jury finding plenty of reasonable doubt.  In fact I find it likely that in most of the country, no DA would even try to indict on that.

All I see here is that those who dislike Tiger automatically assume he's guilty.  No benefit of doubt, no presumed innocence until proven guilty.  Just judge, jury, and executioner.

[JetFan1983]

There's no evidence. Guys like Armstrong, A-Rod and Bonds left a trail of it over numerous years with various nobodies coming forward again and again to tell their story. Tiger can't do PEDs alone. There has to be a network of some kind in place in order to make it happen. Since Oprah hasn't landed any interviews with Joe No-Name willing to tell all about how he injected Tiger's glutes, or since even sites like Deadspin haven't found even a vague whiff of proof it might have happened, I'll continue to consider those who vote yes members of the tin-foil-hat-wearing-irrational-Tiger-hating crowd.

[9iron]

It's not a courtroom, but it is a forum for discussion and debate, so if you are going to make claims and accusations, you'd be well advised to do it with evidence that supports your argument.

Your claim that Tiger did PEDs simply based on a relationship with Galea is weak, and your argument that people here can't see it because we are some kind of Tiger fanboys (I'm paraphrasing, so spare me the semantics retort) is even weaker.

I didn't make a single claim in this thread that is not public knowledge. I have not made any accusations at all. If you think I have them quote them. Also quote my claim that Tiger "did" PED's. It doesn't exist. If ity does, you should be able to quote it. Go ahead, quote it.

What I said is that I believe something is possible, and you are having a little fit about that. This board is amusing. The question gets asked regarding what people believe, but then some get really offended to find out that not everyone else shares their point of view. How do you people get along in life? Must be nothing short of impossible?

[Golfingdad]

Also quote my claim that Tiger "did" PED's. It doesn't exist. If ity does, you should be able to quote it. Go ahead, quote it.

Seriously?  So you're gonna make the claims but not have enough guts to stand behind the claims, and instead just dance around playing word games?  That's childish.