2015 NFL Football Thread

[dsc123]

And you know this for a fact?  Where in any of the $3 million dollar report does it say this?

From Judge Berman's 40-page report

Management Council, answered, "If you are asking, your Honor, is there a text or e-mail in which Mr. Brady specifically instructs somebody to put a needle in a football after the game official checked it? No, there is not such direct evidence." Aug. 12,2015 Hr'g Tr. 22:3-9. -page 6

"The Wells Report also summarized testing and analysis performed by Exponent.  Exponent concluded that "the reduction in pressure of the Patriots game balls cannot be explained completely by basic scientific principles, such as the Ideal Gas Law, based on the circumstances and conditions likely to have been present on the day of the AFC Championship Game." Id. at 130. At the same time, the Wells Report acknowledged that "our scientific consultants informed us that the data alone did not provide a basis for them to determine with absolute certainty whether there was or was not tampering, as the analysis of such data is ultimately dependent upon assumptions and information that is uncertain." Id. at 131 (emphasis added). - page 7"

See Table 11 again in the Exponent Report and the explanation of what the psi should've been according to the Ideal gas Law.

Again, if this isn't a glaring weakness of the case against Brady, I guess we'll never agree and you can go on thinking that Brady is a cheater and a Liar.

Reading comprehension lesson:  When someone says the scientific evidence alone did not provide certainty of tampering, that does not mean there is no evidence of tampering. It means that the additional evidence was considered.  And this makes sense because the only thing the science can tell you is whether they were inflated more than the ideal gas laws allow under the specific assumptions tested. That why it makes no sense for you to try to pick things out of context from the exponent report.  You don't need 100% scientific proof that the balls were deflated when you have communications between people talking about deflating the balls.

If anyone would have read more than what the ESPN-NFL mouth-breathers say, the text messages were in discussion  after the Jets game.  Where the footballs were inflated to 16 psi.  Brady was pissed, as that was one of his worst games and chewed out McNally and Jastermski.  And of course he's the Deflator, his job is to get the balls to the correct psi that Brady likes it, 12.5 psi.  The footballs get air put in them, McNally and Jastremski do their magic with the surface of the football, then Brady checks them  and then they make sure that they are at the appropriate level (12.5).

Both Brady and McNally said that Tom didn't tell them to take out the air of the footballs after the Refs checked them.

And any unbiased person would also look at the facts and see that the evidence is atrocious.  If you spend $3M and the most you can get is some emails about deflator and non providing of his phone, your argument is pretty week.

Okay, this is my last response to you because you just make up things that aren't true, and I'm not really interested in continuing this.  I just came on to remind people not to interpret the judge's decision as clearing brady of wrongdoing.

Fact #1 that you made up: "And of course he's the Deflator, his job is to get the balls to the correct psi that Brady likes it, 12.5 psi"

Actual Fact: Not even the patriots claim that.  They said its because he is fat. You just made that up.

Fact #2 that you made up: "the text messages were in discussion  after the Jets game."

Actual Fact: McNally said "come on help the deflator"  on May 9.  Offseason.  The immediate response was deleted, but McNally then said "i'm not going to espn....yet", also on May 9.

[jsgolfer]

You make no sense.  1) if the balls averaged 11.09, and natural causes could only lower them to 11.32...you realize that this means that some of the balls were deflated more than would be caused by temperature changes, right?  I mean, you realize that that actually proves that they did cheat, right?  2)  The average is meaningless as you use it.  If 11 balls were measured, and 10 rated 8PSI while 1 rated 5000PSI, would you say they didn't deflate any balls because the average was higher than 12.5?

If 11.32 was the lowest it should have measured by natural causes, look at Table A-1.  With gauge A, 8 of the 11 balls were deflated beyond that amount.  This is the gauge the Wells report concludes was used before the game to test the balls.  With gauge B, 3 of them were deflated below the natural limits.  So if you ignore all of the other evidence, and assume that the other gauge was used...just because it fits your preferred outcome...then the Patriots stuck pins in 3 of the balls.  That's your best case scenario.

Then look at the last column.  Look at the loss of pressure by the Patriots balls.  Look at the loss of pressure by the Colts balls.

Excuse me, the 11.09 means they were down at most .2 psi and is that significant (which was my point) and the other gauge they were within the limit.  Do you really think with the gauges used that they can be that accurate?   The gauge that the Wells report concluded was the one that worked out the best for them although the Ref couldn't remember which one he used.

......no.........i was talking about your opinion.  I don't care if you don't read the articles.  I'm just saying 1) as someone with experience with this stuff, and who is skeptical of ESPN generally, I think his analysis was very good; and 2) you're illogical arguments are not more credible than his.

Also, its absurd to call someone a liar for incorrectly predicting a future event.  Read what Florio wrote.  Judge it for yourself.  Its completely illogical.  Is a player who declares that his team is going to win the super bowl a liar when they lose?

I did read the articles, most people have not.  Why was his analysis good?  Please explain?  From my reading the Wells report, the Exponent report and then the Commisioner's appeal report these things are awful.  I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

I disagree about my arguments being illogical. Where did I call him a liar?  I just don't believe what he wrote, all of his opinions to-date have been biased towards the NFL.

[dsc123]

No argument from a legal standpoint but I would certainly argue this assertion from a scientific standpoint.  You are making an assumption that the balls were all definitely at or above 12.5 at the start of the game.  And I believe that this is based solely on the word of the referee, right?  There is no log or record or corroboration of the numbers at the start of the game so you can't make such a precise determination at halftime.

You can conclude only that the balls were under 12.5 at some point earlier, that's all.  Whether that was before or after they were originally measured is not, AFAIK, properly documented.  Therefore, it's plausible that they were 12.3 or 12.2 before the game and that they didn't cheat.

Sure, anything is possible.  For all I know, you could have deflated the balls. But don't confuse that with an assumption. Its based on the testimony of the person who tested the balls.  The contrary position is based on conjecture.

The conclusion that the balls were deflated is also supported by the text messages, destruction of evidence, suspension of the ball boys, etc.  You guys keep trying to offer conjecture to defeat one or two points, but it doesn't work in the larger context.

[jsgolfer]

Reading comprehension lesson:  When someone says the scientific evidence alone did not provide certainty of tampering, that does not mean there is no evidence of tampering. It means that the additional evidence was considered.  And this makes sense because the only thing the science can tell you is whether they were inflated more than the ideal gas laws allow under the specific assumptions tested. That why it makes no sense for you to try to pick things out of context from the exponent report.  You don't need 100% scientific proof that the balls were deflated when you have communications between people talking about deflating the balls.

Okay, this is my last response to you because you just make up things that aren't true, and I'm not really interested in continuing this.  I just came on to remind people not to interpret the judge's decision as clearing brady of wrongdoing.

Fact #1 that you made up: "And of course he's the Deflator, his job is to get the balls to the correct psi that Brady likes it, 12.5 psi"

Actual Fact: Not even the patriots claim that.  They said its because he is fat. You just made that up.

Fact #2 that you made up: "the text messages were in discussion  after the Jets game."

Actual Fact: McNally said "come on help the deflator"  on May 9.  Offseason.  The immediate response was deleted, but McNally then said "i'm not going to espn....yet", also on May 9.

You got me dsc you are the Man, they were my interpretation of what was going on.

.

So they were talking about deflating footballs in May for an AFC Championship game in January the following year.  Which they may or may not be playing in?

[dsc123]

You got me dsc you are the Man, they were my interpretation of what was going on.

.

So they were talking about deflating footballs in May for an AFC Championship game in January the following year.  Which they may or may not be playing in?

Sorry, no hard feelings.

[jsgolfer]

Sorry, no hard feelings.

Absolutely not!

Life would be too boring if everybody agreed about everything.  People should be able to disagree and still be friends.  Its never personal.

[onthehunt526]

Absolutely not!  :beer: Life would be too boring if everybody agreed about everything.  People should be able to disagree and still be friends.  Its never personal.

DEFLATEGATE is over... Now Erik and I get to look at unnecessary camera shots of Omar Epps all season, at least the Crypt Keeper is gone. I wonder if the Steelers players call him Dr. Forman

[jsgolfer]

DEFLATEGATE is over... Now Erik and I get to look at unnecessary camera shots of Omar Epps all season, at least the Crypt Keeper is gone.

Crypt Keeper, good one.  Was it Sean Salisbury that got fired for calling John Clayton that?

[flopster]

And you know this for a fact?  Where in any of the $3 million dollar report does it say this?

From Judge Berman's 40-page report

Management Council, answered, "If you are asking, your Honor, is there a text or e-mail in which Mr. Brady specifically instructs somebody to put a needle in a football after the game official checked it? No, there is not such direct evidence." Aug. 12,2015 Hr'g Tr. 22:3-9. -page 6

"The Wells Report also summarized testing and analysis performed by Exponent.  Exponent concluded that "the reduction in pressure of the Patriots game balls cannot be explained completely by basic scientific principles, such as the Ideal Gas Law, based on the circumstances and conditions likely to have been present on the day of the AFC Championship Game." Id. at 130. At the same time, the Wells Report acknowledged that "our scientific consultants informed us that the data alone did not provide a basis for them to determine with absolute certainty whether there was or was not tampering, as the analysis of such data is ultimately dependent upon assumptions and information that is uncertain." Id. at 131 (emphasis added). - page 7"

See Table 11 again in the Exponent Report and the explanation of what the psi should've been according to the Ideal gas Law.

Again, if this isn't a glaring weakness of the case against Brady, I guess we'll never agree and you can go on thinking that Brady is a cheater and a Liar.

Just my opinion of the guy and I felt this way about him for quite a while.

[jsgolfer]

Just my opinion of the guy and I felt this way about him for quite a while.

OK lets have a beer.

Or we can handle like adults.

Rock, paper or scissors?

[newtogolf]

The NFL will appeal because they can't allow Berman to dilute the importance of Article 46 (Integrity of the game clause) in the CBA.  Without Goodell able to enforce Article 46 every punishment he hands out will be subject to legal review.  This ruling is great news for Greg Hardy and others who have suffered significant suspensions under Article 46.

The Patriots are cheaters, they've been caught 2-3 times and this is just another instance of them pushing the rules past their limits.  Brady didn't cooperate because he didn't want to self incriminate himself.  I have little doubt that there were texts on his phone that addressed ball inflation.  I thought 4 games was too high and was shocked that the NFL would take a chance and risk additional damage to the CBA over such a questionable suspension length.  As much as I hate Brady I don't agree that reduced ball pressure is the same as using PED's.

If the NFL loses the appeal I see major problems in the NFL, as the owners gave up a lot to the union for the inclusion of Article 46.

[Mac62]

I haven't read through the PDF of the report, but saw the average underinflation numbers posted above.  Somebody please tell me the NFL didn't waste 3 million dollars and go on this huge witch hunt over 0.23 psi.  I doubt any player could even feel the difference of less than a quarter psi in a football, no matter how discriminating their hands are.

[onthehunt526]

IMHO the Patriots are cheaters... I think the Jay Feeley issue of doctoring his footballs is what swayed Judge Berman into overturning the NFL's ruling... Basically the issue is a matter of whether this is; A) AN INTEGRITY OF THE GAME VIOLATION , or B) AN EQUIPMENT VIOLATION ... Also the $3 million Wells Report is a damn joke, because really there wasn't any real hard evidence of who the real culprit(s) are... All the evidence is circumstantial at best... There is not really a precedent for this... PERIOD

[flopster]

The NFL will appeal because they can't allow Berman to dilute the importance of Article 46 (Integrity of the game clause) in the CBA.  Without Goodell able to enforce Article 46 every punishment he hands out will be subject to legal review.  This ruling is great news for Greg Hardy and others who have suffered significant suspensions under Article 46.

The Patriots are cheaters, they've been caught 2-3 times and this is just another instance of them pushing the rules past their limits.  Brady didn't cooperate because he didn't want to self incriminate himself.  I have little doubt that there were texts on his phone that addressed ball inflation.  I thought 4 games was too high and was shocked that the NFL would take a chance and risk additional damage to the CBA over such a questionable suspension length.  As much as I hate Brady I don't agree that reduced ball pressure is the same as using PED's.

If the NFL loses the appeal I see major problems in the NFL, as the owners gave up a lot to the union for the inclusion of Article 46.

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/2015/01/25/patriots-fumble-nearly-impossible-rate/LCgrlUR9qgxDsIgcal9dUI/story.html

When I read something like this I think just the opposite, this is what changes the outcome probably more than anything else in football, if all of this winds up blowing up one day I would think banishment should be considered.

[acetoolguy]

Just so everybody knows, Every time a call goes against NE this year I am screaming that the NFL is out to get revenge on the Pats.......forewarned....

[Duff McGee]

Brady is innocent. It is obvious that it was merely coincidence that there are text messages to the accused deflator of footballs where people refer to him as "the deflator." That meant he was dieting.........

[meenman]

Just so everybody knows, Every time a call goes against NE this year I am screaming that the NFL is out to get revenge on the Pats.......forewarned....

brady, belicheat and the rest of the patsies are nothing more than a bunch of criminals. The actions of the court will push the NFL into oblivion like soccer, the wwe and any other sport that 98% of us do not care about.

[phan52]

Upon further review, Goodell is a lying POS and the Pats are still cheaters. Not that it needed verification.

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/13533995/split-nfl-new-england-patriots-apart