GolfDigest Editor Goes Undercover as a Cart Girl

[newtogolf]

I know, and I didn't mean to get into a thing here, but we don't expect lions and tigers to have cognitive control over their urges like we expect humans to have. I think you and I as reasonable people can agree to hold people to higher standards than zoo animals. Especially when we're talking in the context of a game that holds personal integrity in such high esteem.

I was a bouncer my last 2 years in college, I'd rather try and control zoo animals over drunk horny guys.

I understand what you're saying but I would never allow my daughter to work as a scantily clad cart girl or in Hooters (not that she'd ever want to) because of the way some men act.

[Golfingdad]

http://www.golfdigest.com/magazine/2015-04/the-secret-life-of-cart-girls

Seems about what I expected the job would be like, though I'm a little surprised that they can make so much money. I can see it being a good alternative to a job in a bar.

I'm actually surprised that they could make as much as being a bartender.  In a busy bar, you are pouring drinks and then, presumably, also acquiring tips CONSTANTLY.  On a golf course, you are only intermittently pouring drinks and acquiring tips, so the math tells me you'd get a lot less.  Then again, perhaps people in bars are more inclined to not tip or tip less than they are on a golf course because they're not handing the money directly to the bartender.

I second @jamo ... people suck.

[jamo]

I truly don't understand some of you. These are adult humans we're talking about. Not hungry lions. ADULT ****ING HUMANS. With grownup brains. We can't expect them to keep it in their pants in public and shut their ****ing yappers when they're making someone uncomfortable? If no one ever holds them to that higher standard (and by "higher standard," I mean basic human decency), they're never going to meet it. Crissakes. Enjoy defending the *******s in this scenario.

[newtogolf]

I truly don't understand some of you.

These are adult humans we're talking about. Not hungry lions. ADULT ****ING HUMANS. With grownup brains. We can't expect them to keep it in their pants in public? If no one ever holds them to that higher standard (and by "higher standard," I mean basic human decency), they're never going to meet it.

Crissakes. Enjoy defending the *******s.

I'm all for holding them to a higher standard but I don't see golf courses kicking these guys off the course, do you?  We can theorize all we like about how people should and shouldn't act but it means nothing in a practical world.  People shouldn't murder each other, they shouldn't drive drunk, they shouldn't act inappropriately towards provocatively dressed cart girls, but they do.  If you want to have a philosophical discussion about the subject, I'm 100% in agreement with you.

If you want to eliminate the problem in a practical manner you tell the girls to cover up and post rules that inappropriate behavior and harassment towards the cart girls will result in banning from the course.

[rkim291968]

While I find the manner that most men speak to cart girls to be embarrassing I also assign some blame to the golf course and cart girls.

Cart girls are a derivative of bartenders, waitresses and Hooter girls.  Most cart girls I've seen wore provocative outfits intended to titillate men for the purpose of increasing their tips.  If cart girls do not want to be objectified they could wear normal golf clothing (it is a golf course) and act in a friendly but non-flirting manner.  Right or wrong, cart girls know that at least some of the guys they encounter will be obnoxious creeps and that dealing with their pathetic banter is part of the job.  If they want to deal with drunk sleazy idiots they might want to consider a different vocation.

Golf courses could easily eliminate the problem as well by making a policy that those who harass the cart girl will be kicked off the course and banned.  They could also require the girls to wear less revealing outfits or even hire guys to drive the carts as one of the clubs I belonged to did.

Maybe this happens in some other courses I never been to.   The courses I have been to, cart girls don't dress up like you described above.   They were/are in their casual cloths, and don't hustle for tips either.

[dkolo]

I'm all for holding them to a higher standard but I don't see golf courses kicking these guys off the course, do you?  We can theorize all we like about how people should and shouldn't act but it means nothing in a practical world.  People shouldn't murder each other, they shouldn't drive drunk, they shouldn't act inappropriately towards provocatively dressed cart girls, but they do.  If you want to have a philosophical discussion about the subject, I'm 100% in agreement with you.

If you want to eliminate the problem in a practical manner you tell the girls to cover up and post rules that inappropriate behavior and harassment towards the cart girls will result in banning from the course.

I don't think your solution is outlandish or anything, but I'd just argue that if we're trying to help improve a corner of society here, I'd challenge you to put the onus on the party responsible for the problem. I've only seen cart girls dressed in standard-issue uniforms on courses I've played, but even if they were dressed more casually, let's just recognize that what a woman wears shouldn't determine how men treat her in this context. Let's not stand for guys being pricks and putting that on the girl.

[Golfingdad]

I'm all for holding them to a higher standard but I don't see golf courses kicking these guys off the course, do you?  We can theorize all we like about how people should and shouldn't act but it means nothing in a practical world.  People shouldn't murder each other, they shouldn't drive drunk, they shouldn't act inappropriately towards provocatively dressed cart girls, but they do.  If you want to have a philosophical discussion about the subject, I'm 100% in agreement with you.

If you want to eliminate the problem in a practical manner you tell the girls to cover up and post rules that inappropriate behavior and harassment towards the cart girls will result in banning from the course.

But do you "assign some of the blame" to people standing in front of a moving bullet?  Do you "assign some of the blame" to people for driving a car or being pedestrians unknowingly near a drunk driver?

I'm assuming that the answer to both of those is "of course not," and so the follow-up then is why do you assign part of the blame to the cart girls?  Your argument is exactly analogous to the "she was asking for it by dressing like that" argument in regards to rape. (post #32)

[newtogolf]

Maybe this happens in some other courses I never been to.   The courses I have been to, cart girls don't dress up like you described above.   They were/are in their casual cloths, and don't hustle for tips either.

I've only seen "cart girls" on two courses in NJ and at Myrtle Beach.  In all cases I'd not describe their dress as casual and at a few courses it was close to the level of Hooters.

[rkim291968]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkim291968

Maybe this happens in some other courses I never been to.   The courses I have been to, cart girls don't dress up like you described above.   They were/are in their casual cloths, and don't hustle for tips either.

I've only seen "cart girls" on two courses in NJ and at Myrtle Beach.  In all cases I'd not describe their dress as casual and at a few courses it was close to the level of Hooters.

Ok, out here in CA, I can tell you that cart girls don't dress like that at all.

[turtleback]

Let's not ascribe the moral failings of men to the women they act untoward to. Regardless of what women wear, it's not like men don't have the cognitive capacity to repress their more primal instincts.

Let's not ascribe the moral failings of women to the men they entice in order to get more money.  It isn't like women do not have the cognitive capacity to understand exactly what they are doing and why they are doing it.  They do it to make more money  Why else do you think young women would dress in an enticing manner in that environment?

That does not excuse any untoward behavior they face but let's not try to make believe that women are stupid and do not know exactly what affect their dress and behavior will prompt.

In the guise of not "blaming the victim" we sure do treat women as stupid helpless creatures who do not have any understanding of their surroundings.

[dkolo]

Let's not ascribe the moral failings of women to the men they entice in order to get more money.  It isn't like women do not have the cognitive capacity to understand exactly what they are doing and why they are doing it.  They do it to make more money  Why else do you think young women would dress in an enticing manner in that environment? That does not excuse any untoward behavior they face but let's not try to make believe that women are stupid and do not know exactly what affect their dress and behavior will prompt. In the guise of not "blaming the victim" we sure do treat women as stupid helpless creatures who do not have any understanding of their surroundings.

What moral failings are those? They're working a food cart, not a stripper pole. I don't understand why you think dressing attractively is an invitation for harassment. That's a disturbing assertion. What you consider dressing "enticing" might just be normal for them.

[CR McDivot]

Men will be men, girls will be girls, gentlemen will be gentlemen whether they are dealing with ladies or teases.

All the cart girls I have had the pleasure of dealing with have behaved as ladies, albeit young and attractive ladies. Nearly all have been courteous, patient, and efficient.

It cannot be easy considering most men are idiots.

[newtogolf]

But do you "assign some of the blame" to people standing in front of a moving bullet?  Do you "assign some of the blame" to people for driving a car or being pedestrians unknowingly near a drunk driver?

I'm assuming that the answer to both of those is "of course not," and so the follow-up then is why do you assign part of the blame to the cart girls?  Your argument is exactly analogous to the "she was asking for it by dressing like that" argument in regards to rape. (post #32)

Drew, I know you well enough on here to realize you are not that naïve to how things in this world work and I'd hope you know me well enough to not think I believe how a women is dressed justifies her being raped.  We're not talking about getting shot or raped we're talking about human nature and what is within the cart girls and the golf courses control to minimize harassment if they find it offensive.

I don't want to be shot so I avoid going into bad neighborhoods where there is a high likelihood I would be and if I do have to go to one, I don't dress flashy or wear expensive jewelry that would attract unwanted attention.  I avoid driving late at night on New Years eve or Super Bowl night because I'd prefer to minimize my odds of encountering a drunk driver.   I adjust the ways I conduct my life to ensure my families and my own safety and happiness.  It's unfortunate that I have to make concessions to how I live my life because there are people in this world that rob and shoot people or drive drunk but that is how it is.

My point was simply that the cart girls and golf courses could take actions to discourage poor behavior if they found it that offensive.  If they choose to do nothing they can expect to continue to deal with rude a**holes because I'm not betting on the human race evolving to the point where poor or rude behavior under such circumstances won't be commonly exhibited.

[dkolo]

Drew, I know you well enough on here to realize you are not that naïve to how things in this world work and I'd hope you know me well enough to not think I believe how a women is dressed justifies her being raped.  We're not talking about getting shot or raped we're talking about human nature and what is within the cart girls and the golf courses control to minimize harassment if they find it offensive.

I don't want to be shot so I avoid going into bad neighborhoods where there is a high likelihood I would be and if I do have to go to one, I don't dress flashy or wear expensive jewelry that would attract unwanted attention.  I avoid driving late at night on New Years eve or Super Bowl night because I'd prefer to minimize my odds of encountering a drunk driver.   I adjust the ways I conduct my life to ensure my families and my own safety and happiness.  It's unfortunate that I have to make concessions to how I live my life because there are people in this world that rob and shoot people or drive drunk but that is how it is.

My point was simply that the cart girls and golf courses could take actions to discourage poor behavior if they found it that offensive.  If they choose to do nothing they can expect to continue to deal with rude a**holes because I'm not betting on the human race evolving to the point where poor or rude behavior under such circumstances won't be commonly exhibited.

That's all perfectly reasonable! I think all we had a problem with was the mention of ascribing blame to women, even in part, based on dress. It's just important to acknowledge for purposes of discouraging this sort of bad behavior that the fault lies entirely with the guys and not the girls. It helps get rid of the excuse, I think.

[iacas]

I've read the above, and decided to share my own thoughts. I'm not quoting or responding to anyone in particular.

• Men suck. Despite being athletic, I was always friends with the geeks and dorks and more than my fair share of the hotter chicks in college and so on because I was a good guy. I wasn't a threat. I wasn't a "bad boy" and I wouldn't try to screw them any chance I got.
• On the golf course, I rarely need the services/goods of the cart girl (we don't have many around here given the shorter season), but when I do, I try to tip a little bit, get what I want, and keep the conversation and whatnot to a polite minimum. I respect women.
• I'll look if a cute girl is walking down the street. My wife doesn't care. Looking is looking.
• On the golf course, it's also okay to look. I don't think any cart girl who dresses with short shorts or tight shirts cares about guys looking.
• But that's where the line is. It's at looking. A tight shirt and a $1 tip does not entitle guys to harass the women/girls. They don't get to make the comments I've heard.
• Human decency sounds about right. ****ing grow up. She's selling you a beer, not offering you a lap dance. If you want that, it costs more than $8 and a tip.

I don't play golf very often with guys who are at all disgusting, but I've seen and been around some pretty bad performances. It's disgusting, and about half the time, I've either said something to the guys themselves or apologized to the cart girl.

All that said, my daughter may some day want to be a cart girl. She'll know how guys behave, and she is a sarcastic, smart kid who can probably dish it right back. We'll see.

[rkim291968]

I've read the above, and decided to share my own thoughts. I'm not quoting or responding to anyone in particular.

Men suck. Despite being athletic, I was always friends with the geeks and dorks and more than my fair share of the hotter chicks in college and so on because I was a good guy. I wasn't a threat. I wasn't a "bad boy" and I wouldn't try to screw them any chance I got.

On the golf course, I rarely need the services/goods of the cart girl (we don't have many around here given the shorter season), but when I do, I try to tip a little bit, get what I want, and keep the conversation and whatnot to a polite minimum. I respect women.

I'll look if a cute girl is walking down the street. My wife doesn't care. Looking is looking.

On the golf course, it's also okay to look. I don't think any cart girl who dresses with short shorts or tight shirts cares about guys looking.

But that's where the line is. It's at looking. A tight shirt and a $1 tip does not entitle guys to harass the women/girls. They don't get to make the comments I've heard.

Human decency sounds about right. ****ing grow up. She's selling you a beer, not offering you a lap dance. If you want that, it costs more than $8 and a tip.

I don't play golf very often with guys who are at all disgusting, but I've seen and been around some pretty bad performances. It's disgusting, and about half the time, I've either said something to the guys themselves or apologized to the cart girl.

All that said, my daughter may some day want to be a cart girl. She'll know how guys behave, and she is a sarcastic, smart kid who can probably dish it right back. We'll see.

That's sums it up for me, too.

I don't get the boys are boys and girls are girls BS in this context.  Not in 2015, and not in the place I play golf.   As I said, cart girls in my course dress up normally, don't hustle for tips, and are kids looking to make some money like everyone else.  It's a small minority of men (often with a beer or two or more) who are still in "boy" mentality that gives bad perception.   I am more sensitive to this topic b/c my wife play golf with me 95% of the time.  She already has a bad perception of men in general, having married to me for 27 years.  I don't need a reminder by others.

[oregongolfguy]

I will say that the incidents that I have seen have been few are far between. But again I don't pay alot of attention either. I'm playing golf. Not eating lunch, drinking or whatever. I probably buy less then 10 dollars a year worth of stuff from carts on the course.

[boogielicious]

I would add that some men feel they can get away with this behavior because they don't know the cart girl and feel they can hide behind their anonymity.  This is similar to how trolls behave on internet forums, where people will write things they would never say to people's faces.  We all know men like this who act one way at work when their boss is around or in social settings with their spouses.  Then these same men degrade to junior high when they are with all guys.  These are the same men that companies use for sexual harassment training examples.

I have no issue calling them out to their faces.