Are there too many rules in golf?

[Shorty]

I hit my second shot about 210 yds on a par 5 that went a little errant... and landed in the general area between the third green and the men's tee of the 4th hole. I was playing a yellow Bridgestone. There was just low cut rough in the area. I watched in panic and yelled as some guy hit my ball onto the 3rd green holed out with his foursome and went onto the 4th hole, teed off while I was waiting for the rest of my foursome to get caught up to that area. I get to hit another ball under S&D; and duffed the shot. When I went to that area I found his ball, a yellow Pinnacle in the general area but in a much poorer position for the 3rd green and for the 5th hole (mine). That just wasn't fair.

You did the wrong thing. If you know he hit your ball you drop one where you think he hit yours from with no penalty.

The other guy being a cheat, knowingly hitting a different brand, - that's if he did in fact count his score there - is nothing to do with rules and fairness. It's about integrity and honesty

[rkim291968]

I think what everyone forgets is golf is suffering right now in part to how difficult a game it is and how long the rounds take. Some rules should be tweaked to attract more people to the sport...

Casual golfers tweak or ignore golf rules anyway.  Heck, most of them don't even know the rules.   Tweaking rules may not attract more people to golf.  However, I agree that long round is deterring video game generation folks to play golf.

[DrvFrShow]

You did the wrong thing. If you know he hit your ball you drop one where you think he hit yours from with no penalty.

The other guy being a cheat, knowingly hitting a different brand, - that's if he did in fact count his score there - is nothing to do with rules and fairness. It's about integrity and honesty

Thanks. I was just learning the game. And people I was playing with are "sticklers for the rules" and I later found don't know the rules as well as they think. Since then I put a fairly unique mark on my golf balls and they're also easier to find.

[Dancers Image]

The Rules of Golf have to cover ever possible situation.  The reality is that on the course there are probably a dozen situations which occur and need a clear decision. The  problem is that the majority of golfers have never read the rules of golf, or the definitions, and pick up their understandings (?) on an ad hoc basis.  The Rules of Golf are written in very clear language. Comments such as "another stupid rule" come from those who cannot be bothered to make the effort to understand them.  The actuality is that the rules are there to help and improve the pleasure of playing the game.  It is in your own interest to learn and understand the Rules.

[turtleback]

Fairway divots are those four to six inch long ditches taken out of the sod by a golf club making a stroke. Examples are below. My ball has ended up in one like the middle and right.

Ending up in the one in the middle after hammering a drive is called a #@!!%!!!@#$!!!, and no one in non-competitive round play will play out of one like that anyway. But if your club is playing winter rules with lift and clean you get to move out of it anyway.

I'd hit out of every one of those.  With your goals as a golfer I'd suggest you do the same.  It makes you really focus on making great contact and when you hit a beauty out of a lie like that you really feel great.

To me, the problem isn't quantity, it's quality.  Other sports may have more rules, but they are usually logical and can be inferred on grounds of fairness.  That can't be said for most golf rules.

Only when people have not bothered to find out why the rules as they are.  Feel free to accept the @iacas challenge and show us what you think and adequate set of rules would look like to you.  As to fairness?  Golf is a game more concerned with equity than fairness.  That is the problem with the divot issue.  There really is no way to frame the definition of divot in a way that will be equitable, since it will have to depend on the player's judgement on whether that bad spot on the ground qualifies for the relief.  It is easy to post clear, obvious, examples, as @DrvFrShow did above, but it is the closer calls that are the problem.

I'll take the whole divot issue a who lot more seriously when people also start complaining about the unfairness of hitting it into the trees and having it carom into the middle of the fairway.  When they start throwing those balls back into the woods I'll start looking more kindly on when they roll a ball out of a divot.  Because when it comes right down to it, almost every rule complaint comes down to wanting to write down a smaller number.

I think what everyone forgets is golf is suffering right now in part to how difficult a game it is and how long the rounds take. Some rules should be tweaked to attract more people to the sport...

Since most people do not play by the rules, I do not think changing the rules will affect pace of play at all.  If they changed the rules people still wouldn't play by them.  So why should they change the rules for people who won't play by the new rules, either?

[newtogolf]

Part of the reason golf has so many rules is because the field of play is not standardized.  Rules need to be defined on how you handle all the potential situations that arise due to the unique characteristics of each course, whether it be hazards, houses, swamps, cliffs, etc.

[Golf Grouch]

I guess that you don't know what they mean then.  Ground under repair is an area of the course which the committee has marked as abnormal ground.  I have yet to see a divot hole so marked.  They don't really qualifiy because there is nothing abnormal about them - quite the opposite.  If I was to make a list of the conditions or features most commonly found on a golf course, divots would be right under grass in order of ubiquitousness.

You have already been told about the rut.  Ground under repair must be marked or in some way designated as such by the committee.  The player doesn't have the authority to play any defect he finds as ground under repair just because he perceives it as unfair.

I'm not arguing how to apply the current rules of golf, I'm arguing that the fundamental rules themselves are the problem.  In this case, the definition of ground under repair is the issue.

[Fourputt]

Part of the reason golf has so many rules is because the field of play is not standardized.  Rules need to be defined on how you handle all the potential situations that arise due to the unique characteristics of each course, whether it be hazards, houses, swamps, cliffs, etc.

They need to be specific enough to address all of the conditions that a player may face on the course,  but flexible enough to deal with the variability of those conditions.  It is in clarifying particular issues that most of the decisions come into play.  Golf is so complex that the method of a book of rules and a (rather larger) book of decisions to assist in specific rulings was the only practical way to approach it.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I guess that you don't know what they mean then.  Ground under repair is an area of the course which the committee has marked as abnormal ground.  I have yet to see a divot hole so marked.  They don't really qualifiy because there is nothing abnormal about them - quite the opposite.  If I was to make a list of the conditions or features most commonly found on a golf course, divots would be right under grass in order of ubiquitousness.

You have already been told about the rut.  Ground under repair must be marked or in some way designated as such by the committee.  The player doesn't have the authority to play any defect he finds as ground under repair just because he perceives it as unfair.

I'm not arguing how to apply the current rules of golf, I'm arguing that the fundamental rules themselves are the problem.  In this case, the definition of ground under repair is the issue.

The issue I see with your contention is that you feel that a player is sometimes entitled to a good lie.  That is not how the game works.  About the only time such a thing is even mentioned is when the rules say that the player is entitled to the lie his shot gave him.  There is nothing that says a player should have a good lie, regardless of where his ball is on the course.  The modern rules certainly make special allowances for a ball on the putting green, but not elsewhere unless the area is somehow designated for relief.  I play from ruts, roots, gravel, hardpan, mud - it's all golf.  If my ball lies in a condition from which relief is allowed, I will examine the options and if the current lie is as good as or better than the relief lie, then I probably won't bother to move the ball.  I've hit from asphalt and concrete cart paths when the drop would have been in almost unplayable rough.

The principle of playing the ball as it lies really is the most basic fundamental tenet of the game.  Everything else derives from that axiom.  You play the ball as it lies unless the lie makes that impossible, or the condition of the lie allows relief under the rules.  That is the essence of the game of golf.

[DrvFrShow]

Alright, try this one. My ball ended up in an area marked GUR by 1 foot. It was a long GUR and it was roped off. And it was deep. Checking the NPoR no closer to the green, since it was greenside, was on the adjacent fairway 50 yds away which was where I had to play my ball because moving laterally was further away from the hole and put me on the cart path (concrete) requiring relief which put me closer to the hole on one side or back into the GUR on the other. Such are the joys of playing in April in the Puget Sound area.

Anyway the rules actually helped get a better lie in the first case since it got my ball out of tall rough and onto short stuff and my lob shot landed on the green allowing me to save DB with my 30 foot putt. (why do I never make these for birdie?)

But if you're in a 6" deep trough from a lawnmower tire and aren't sure, you can play one ball and call the area a GUR, and a second ball as an unplayable lie and take it up with the committee after your round. Take a picture on your smartphone if you have one. I carry mine on my belt so I can take the photo while others are putting.

[David in FL]

I'm not arguing how to apply the current rules of golf, I'm arguing that the fundamental rules themselves are the problem.  In this case, the definition of ground under repair is the issue.

Given that the definition of GUR is simply "any part of the course so marked by order of the Committee or so declared by its authorized representative" , what is it that you don't like about the definition and how would you change it?

[Ernest Jones]

In my experience there's too many strokes in golf. :cry:

[wadesworld]

I think what everyone forgets is golf is suffering right now in part to how difficult a game it is and how long the rounds take. Some rules should be tweaked to attract more people to the sport...

Golf is not suffering because of rules.  The VAST majority of casual golfers ignore rules which inconvenience them.

[DrvFrShow]

Exactly. I'm thinking like next year I'll join a local course and play 9 for practice to work on my golf swing say 3 days a week, enjoy the sunshine, and just practice hitting the ball in real conditions. Don't keep score. Just hit the ball and go around the 9 holes. I'll get my time in, have fun, my exercise and have about the right proportion of my distance and short game work. Then for my league stuff, play strict RoG, and deal with the consequences. Casual rounds with friends, play it loose like they want and have fun.

[Golf Grouch]

...The principle of playing the ball as it lies really is the most basic fundamental tenet of the game.  Everything else derives from that axiom.  You play the ball as it lies unless the lie makes that impossible, or the condition of the lie allows relief under the rules.  That is the essence of the game of golf.

I agree with you.  What I'm proposing is that the "principle of playing the ball as it lies" is flawed.  Change that founding principle and it's possible to simply the rules drastically and still retain the core concept of golf.

Try for a moment to open your mind completely and not be bound by the current rules of golf.  Let's say you have all the elements of golf without any rules.  You have golf clubs, golf balls and a golf course with holes, greens, hazards, and tee boxes.  You are given the task of creating a game with these elements.  Don't you think it's possible to create a simple game that's fair and easily understood?

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

...The principle of playing the ball as it lies really is the most basic fundamental tenet of the game.  Everything else derives from that axiom.  You play the ball as it lies unless the lie makes that impossible, or the condition of the lie allows relief under the rules.  That is the essence of the game of golf.

I agree with you.  What I'm proposing is that the "principle of playing the ball as it lies" is flawed.  Change that founding principle and it's possible to simply the rules drastically and still retain the core concept of golf.

Try for a moment to open your mind completely and not be bound by the current rules of golf.  Let's say you have all the elements of golf without any rules.  You have golf clubs, golf balls and a golf course with holes, greens, hazards, and tee boxes.  You are given the task of creating a game with these elements.  Don't you think it's possible to create a simple game that's fair and easily understood?

That fundamental is the whole basis of the game.  For 400 years, that has been what drives the game of golf.  Change that principle and you don't have golf any more.  I'm interested in playing golf, not some some game that isn't golf which was invented just for the sake of what you call simplification.  That's like taking baseball and eliminating 2nd and 3rd base.  You can play it with a ball and bat, but it ain't gonna be baseball.

[David in FL]

I agree with you. What I'm proposing is that the "principle of playing the ball as it lies" is flawed.  Change that founding principle and it's possible to simply the rules drastically and still retain the core concept of golf. Try for a moment to open your mind completely and not be bound by the current rules of golf.  Let's say you have all the elements of golf without any rules.  You have golf clubs, golf balls and a golf course with holes, greens, hazards, and tee boxes.  You are given the task of creating a game with these elements.  Don't you think it's possible to create a simple game that's fair and easily understood?

That's where you just couldn't be more wrong. The rules are built around core principles that define the game, not vice versa. Remove the core principles, and you fundamentally change the game itself, to something not golf. The issue that you don't acknowledge is the need to cover every situation that can arise so that fellow competitors in a stroke play event are all playing under the same rules, not allowing for differing interpretations of the same situation by different competitors/groups on the course. You continue to say that you don't like certain rules, or that they could/should be simplified, but you have yet to give viable examples. I asked above, what is it that you don't like about the definition of GUR, and how would you change/simplify it?

[newtogolf]

I agree with you.  What I'm proposing is that the "principle of playing the ball as it lies" is flawed.  Change that founding principle and it's possible to simply the rules drastically and still retain the core concept of golf.

Try for a moment to open your mind completely and not be bound by the current rules of golf.  Let's say you have all the elements of golf without any rules.  You have golf clubs, golf balls and a golf course with holes, greens, hazards, and tee boxes.  You are given the task of creating a game with these elements.  Don't you think it's possible to create a simple game that's fair and easily understood?

Why do we need to change the game?  You can walk on a course and employ any rules you like if it makes the game more enjoyable for you.  You can even get your friends to play by "Golf Grouch" rules if they are so inclined and you could at some point run your own golf tournament that's played by "Golf Grouch" rules.

I like golf the way it is, I have no problem with others that want to play by their own rules as long as they aren't forced on me and they follow the standard rules when competing in a tournament.  I like that I participate in a universal game that is played the same way regardless of whether you live in NY, Scotland or China and that my handicap is applicable as well.

The problem I see in the world today is that when people have problems or issues with something (like golf) their first instinct is to change the rules for everyone.  I don't want to play golf according to "Golf Grouch" rules, so enjoy whatever your rules are but leave the rest us to play golf as we know it.