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Ball Held by Inner Cup Liner, Ruling? (Pictures Inside)


DannyMac
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Doesn't Rule 20-3d then come into play?  If the ball doesn't come to rest when placed, it must be replaced, etc.

Firstly, apologies for saying "replaced instead of "placed".   Secondly, this is just my reading of the situation through applying the rules as I see them to something entirely new - no higher authority than that!

We are told to place the ball directly below where it had been on the obstruction.  Directly below is at the bottom of the hole where the ball is at rest.

It appears to me that in the attempt to place the ball, it would hit the top edge of the hole liner, thus moving it closer to the hole (it's hard to tell for certain from the photo).  If that is the case, the ball would not come to rest on that spot.  Then the player would have to find the nearest spot not closer to the hole where the ball would remain at rest and place it there, tapping in from that point.

Bingo!!!  Here is the Decision I've been looking for:

17/6

Ball Lodged in Flag Attached to Flagstick

Q.A player's ball lodges in the flag attached to a flagstick. What is the procedure?

A.A flagstick is a movable obstruction and Rule 24-1 applies. However, in taking relief the player may not place the ball in the hole. Therefore, in equity (Rule 1-4), the player must place the ball on the lip of the hole when taking relief.

I knew I'd read that before, it just took a while to find it. :smartass:

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last time I checked in hockey there is a straight line that needs to be crossed.. What this has to do with 3D and lifting the net I will never know.. Same with football there is a straight line to cross.. One sport says whole puck the other says part of the ball.. If anything football is closer to golf in that it is ball and not a puck or disc.. But you are more than welcome to have what ever opinion you choose..

When I see that picture in the OP I find it hard justifying that they need another stroke to get the ball in the hole.. Sometimes dumb rules are created and then they end up with these situations, it happens.. These guys that made the golf rules aren't infallible to mistakes.

In hockey, the ENTIRE puck must cross the line.  No different in golf where the entire ball must be below the lip.

Is the hockey rule dumb?

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last time I checked in hockey there is a straight line that needs to be crossed.. What this has to do with 3D and lifting the net I will never know...

You'll never know only if you're closed to learning. A puck can't enter the net from the side, through the net, beneath the bottom bar if lifted, etc. it doesn't just break the plane. How it crosses the plane matters. Same in disc golf. Heck a disc can be resting in the basket but not deemed holed out depending on how it got there. Not the first time you're dead set in your opinion while not knowing basic information Eyad. Thus far your reason for why you think it's holed seems to be "because you think so."

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In hockey, the ENTIRE puck must cross the line.  No different in golf where the entire ball must be below the lip. Is the hockey rule dumb?

Ummm.. Yeah, and in football unlike hockey the ball doesn't have to.. I would like to see the rule in golf resemble that.. This has nothing to do with the rule in hockey being dumb or not, we can have that conversation in a hockey forum if you like though. [quote name="iacas" url="/t/82576/ball-held-by-inner-cup-liner-ruling-pictures-inside/30_10#post_1154041"] You'll never know only if you're closed to learning. A puck can't enter the net from the side, through the net, beneath the bottom bar if lifted, etc. it doesn't just break the plane. How it crosses the plane matters. Same in disc golf. Heck a disc can be resting in the basket but not deemed holed out depending on how it got there. Not the first time you're dead set in your opinion while not knowing basic information Eyad. Thus far your reason for why you think it's holed seems to be "because you think so."[/quote] What is the basic information I am missing here? The rule in golf is stupid and IMO it would be a better rule of it was a hole out when and if the ball crosses the plane within the circumference and stays there so that we don't get illogical rulings like making the guy who hit the ball in the pictured OP to take another stroke when he clearly did exactly what was intended by the creators of golf..(all my opinion) Now if you don't like my opinion that's cool. And if you don't like my example of the football crossing the plane that's cool too..

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Ummm.. Yeah, and in football unlike hockey the ball doesn't have to.. I would like to see the rule in golf resemble that.. This has nothing to do with the rule in hockey being dumb or not, we can have that conversation in a hockey forum if you like though.

Not the first time you change the topic to talk about me instead of the actual topic.. Called deflection IIRC..

What is the basic information I am missing here? The rule in golf is stupid and IMO it would be a better rule of it was a hole out when and if the ball crosses the plane within the circumference and stays there so that we don't get illogical rulings like making the guy who hit the ball in the pictured OP to take another stroke when he clearly did exactly what was intended by the creators of golf..(all my opinion)

Now if you don't like my opinion that's cool. And if you don't like my example of the football crossing the plane that's cool too..


The point is, there's nothing "stupid" about the hockey rule, nor is there anything stupid about the golf rule.  The football rule is different, but in no way "better."

Where do you get the idea that the inventors of golf intended that a ball stuck halfway in the hole, but halfway out, should count?

BTW, in football, a ball kicked for a field goal must pass completely through the uprights to count. If part of the ball were to break the front or even back plane of the uprights and then it hits the crossbar and bounces out, it does not count.  Similarly, a basketball that goes halfway through the hoop and bounces out does not count.

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The point is, there's nothing "stupid" about the hockey rule, nor is there anything stupid about the golf rule.  The football rule is different, but in no way "better." Where do you get the idea that the inventors of golf intended that a ball stuck halfway in the hole, but halfway out, should count?

When I look at the OP picture I find it illogical that this wouldn't count and that is why it is a stupid rule.. I said before that I will play by the current rules, but IMO it would be a better rule changed to what I mentioned.. Well it doesn't really matter what they intended at this point, it is just my opinion that they would not say place it outside the hole even though you were clearly half way in.. Just my opinion.

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What is the basic information I am missing here? The rule in golf is stupid and IMO it would be a better rule of it was a hole out when and if the ball crosses the plane within the circumference and stays there so that we don't get illogical rulings like making the guy who hit the ball in the pictured OP to take another stroke when he clearly did exactly what was intended by the creators of golf..(all my opinion)

That's not illogical, it's within the rules of golf. It's how they are written and thus how the game must be played. If the rule were written the way you want it to be, then it would be wrong to make the guy take another stroke. Not really sure where the hangup is, you're describing something that you'd like to see versus what it really is.

One could just as easily argue the opposite and say that any ball that isn't sitting on the bottom of the cup can't be considered "holed out" and it would be illogical to consider any other circumstance as such.

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When I look at the OP picture I find it illogical that this wouldn't count and that is why it is a stupid rule.. I said before that I will play by the current rules, but IMO it would be a better rule changed to what I mentioned..

In other words… your opinion is your only supporting information. Again.

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That's not illogical, it's within the rules of golf. It's how they are written and thus how the game must be played. If the rule were written the way you want it to be, then it would be wrong to make the guy take another stroke. Not really sure where the hangup is, you're describing something that you'd like to see versus what it really is. One could just as easily argue the opposite and say that any ball that isn't sitting on the bottom of the cup can't be considered "holed out" and it would be illogical to consider any other circumstance as such.

Clearly that's all I have said. Go back and take a look.. I said I will play by the rules as they are, but I would like them changed to x.. I think it is illogical and you are free to think otherwise.. Cool.

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And the picture in the OP clearly showing how stupid the rule is.. Yeah..

Then stop posting if that's all you have to contribute. Easy. We all know now what you think. Heaven forbid you make a case for why you think something.

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Clearly that's all I have said. Go back and take a look.. I said I will play by the rules as they are, but I would like them changed to x..

I think it is illogical and you are free to think otherwise.. Cool.

I saw that. The thing is, if you want to present an argument otherwise, it'd be nice if you could actually present an argument other than just your opinion. That's the point everyone is getting at. You want to see the rule changed? Fine. Show us your proposal and your supporting reasons and we can discuss it. As it is, you've presented nothing to debate over.

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I don't think the rules are 100% clear on this situation. Yes, it may be that it is a case of decision 16-2 or 16-3 applying (depending on whether all of the ball is below the lip) but it might be that the liner makes for a different ruling. I find it interesting that wind or gravity can move a ball into the hole after a ball has been marked and replace without it counting as as shot (unless the ball was on the lip of the hole to begin with) AS LONG AS THE BALL WAS AT REST BEFORE WIND/GRAVITY acted upon it. So this guy has two problems to potentially overcome to consider this ball hole- 1. It may be too close to the hole to benefit from gravity moving it into the hole. 2. Gravity will act upon the ball too quickly to be able to deem it at rest. Rule Ball in Play Moved by Wind or Gravity Q. A player replaces his ball on the putting green and the ball is at rest. Without addressing the ball the player steps away to read his putt. The ball moves either due to the wind or the slope of the putting green. How should the player proceed? A. The player must play his ball from the new position without penalty. If the ball was moved into the hole then the player is deemed to have holed out with his previous stroke (Decision 20-3d/1). Note: It is not relevant whether the player had removed his ball-marker before the ball was moved by the wind or gravity as the player's ball was in play when it was replaced (Rule 20-4).
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Then stop posting if that's all you have to contribute. Easy. We all know now what you think. Heaven forbid you make a case for why you think something.

Well I am going to post until I feel my point has really come across.. Or when others you included don't engage with what I said? Or am I supposed to just not respond when people are responding to me or asking me questions?

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Just in case anybody is wondering, the ball can hit the bottom of the cup and bounce out:

Others have mentioned it, but the liner may have actually saved the shot from a worse fate.

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It was ruled a Hole In One.

Here's a link to the article.

I will drink to that.   Golf is hard enough already to count it as birdie instead of a hole-in-one.

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