Lost Ball Rule is Stupid

[wadesworld]

Basically this thread comes down to everybody should have perfect vision to play golf. You have to be able to see a tiny white ball 300 yards down a fairway or rough.

If you can't do that you are basically throwing away 2 shots.

And here again, we come to the real source of your complaints.  You don't like what a lost ball does to your score.

How about we change it so you can drop where you think the ball is lost, but you have to take a 4-stroke penalty.  Good with that?

[Duff McGee]

I don't see any unnatural variables nor have I seen you list any. You've sloughed off the disadvantages of crowds, and you have ignored the idea that you're responsible for your ball. Others are under no obligation to help you find it. Someone else finding your ball is good luck if YOU lost it.

[quote name="wadesworld" url="/t/83618/lost-ball-rule-is-stupid/210#post_1187670"] And here again, we come to the real source of your complaints.  You don't like what a lost ball does to your score. How about we change it so you can drop where you think the ball is lost, but you have to take a 4-stroke penalty.  Good with that? [/quote] Of course he doesn't like it. I know you feel like you have just come up with a "gotcha" moment but why else would anyone care about the rule? Some people in the small minority get trashed because we think it's unfair and the majority thinks it's fair. Yet we both agree that stroke and distance hurts your score and it is not a good thing to have to write down on the scorecard....

[pumaAttack]

And here again, we come to the real source of your complaints.  You don't like what a lost ball does to your score. How about we change it so you can drop where you think the ball is lost, but you have to take a 4-stroke penalty.  Good with that?

Duh. I'm not going to complain about a rule that rewards me. What is your point?! How do you all think rules are changed and expanded on? By people providing feedback and observations or just blinding changing them? You all seem just stead fast against any sort of change. And because your course didn't have leaves on it, we now have to take your rules? What if leaves were more common at your course? Surely a rule would come along if the vast majority spent 5 minutes looking for every drive. Just because an occurrence is rare doesn't mean it can't hold its weight for a rule Expansion.

[wadesworld]

Duh. I'm not going to complain about a rule that rewards me. What is your point?!

How do you all think rules are changed and expanded on? By people providing feedback and observations or just blinding changing them? You all seem just stead fast against any sort of change.

And because your course didn't have leaves on it, we now have to take your rules? What if leaves were more common at your course? Surely a rule would come along if the vast majority spent 5 minutes looking for every drive. Just because an occurrence is rare doesn't mean it can't hold its weight for a rule

Expansion.

My point is that your complaint is simply you don't like the result of the rule, rather than there being an actual problem with the way the rule is written.

Nobody here is steadfast against change that has actually considered the implications and has some basis in the principles of the rules of golf.  We are steadfast against ill-conceived "they should change this rule in this totally-unworkable way because I don't like taking triples and/or can't remember to hit a provisional" arguments.

Do you really think "drop somewhere near where you think the ball was" is a workable rule on the PGA Tour when the $10 million FedEx cup is on the line?  Or at the US Amateur?  Or your state Mid-Am?  Or even your club championship?

As many, many others have said, when you're playing casually, do whatever you feel like.  Heck, since it's "unfair" that you can lose your ball in the leaves or rough, just drop and don't penalize yourself anything.  But anytime a serious competition has to be held, a rule with some real foundation and vetting is needed.

[Duff McGee]

Speaking of hitting provisionals.....I would have to hit a provisional anytime my ball was not visible in the fairway after teeing off. This would not be a realistic solution. The point is, many of us not great golfers have hit a ball, watched it roll off the fairway, driven or walked right up to where it was, spent 2 minutes looking for it as others are watching us back on the tee box on a busy day. You are damned if you do, damned if you don't in that situation. You would be the most hated person in town if you went back to the tee box (see the slow play thread for evidence of what it would be like) or hit a provisional any time you can't see your ball from the tee box, which would also be a big issue for those around you. Tournaments are different in that the other golfers understand that you need to take time to look for your ball or hit tons of provisionals. A weekend on your local muni not so much.

[wadesworld]

Speaking of hitting provisionals.....I would have to hit a provisional anytime my ball was not visible in the fairway after teeing off. This would not be a realistic solution.

The point is, many of us not great golfers have hit a ball, watched it roll off the fairway, driven or walked right up to where it was, spent 2 minutes looking for it as others are watching us back on the tee box on a busy day. You are damned if you do, damned if you don't in that situation.

You would be the most hated person in town if you went back to the tee box (see the slow play thread for evidence of what it would be like) or hit a provisional any time you can't see your ball from the tee box, which would also be a big issue for those around you.

Tournaments are different in that the other golfers understand that you need to take time to look for your ball or hit tons of provisionals. A weekend on your local muni not so much.

As I, and many others have previously stated, if you find yourself in that situation in a non-tournament round, drop one and write down whatever score you want. I fail to understand why you guys continually ignore this advice, when it's exactly the solution you want?

[Duff McGee]

As I, and many others have previously stated, if you find yourself in that situation in a non-tournament round, drop one and write down whatever score you want. I fail to understand why you guys continually ignore this advice, when it's exactly the solution you want?

1) as I said, I am a stickler for the rules. Just because I follow it doesn't mean I agree with it 100%. 2) does every discussion have to have a solution?

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

I don't see any unnatural variables nor have I seen you list any. You've sloughed off the disadvantages of crowds, and you have ignored the idea that you're responsible for your ball. Others are under no obligation to help you find it. Someone else finding your ball is good luck if YOU lost it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wadesworld

And here again, we come to the real source of your complaints.  You don't like what a lost ball does to your score.

How about we change it so you can drop where you think the ball is lost, but you have to take a 4-stroke penalty.  Good with that?

Of course he doesn't like it. I know you feel like you have just come up with a "gotcha" moment but why else would anyone care about the rule? Some people in the small minority get trashed because we think it's unfair and the majority thinks it's fair. Yet we both agree that stroke and distance hurts your score and it is not a good thing to have to write down on the scorecard....

Show me where in the rules it says that anything has to be fair.  Then we can continue this discussion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wadesworld

And here again, we come to the real source of your complaints.  You don't like what a lost ball does to your score.

How about we change it so you can drop where you think the ball is lost, but you have to take a 4-stroke penalty.  Good with that?

Duh. I'm not going to complain about a rule that rewards me. What is your point?!

How do you all think rules are changed and expanded on? By people providing feedback and observations or just blinding changing them? You all seem just stead fast against any sort of change.

And because your course didn't have leaves on it, we now have to take your rules? What if leaves were more common at your course? Surely a rule would come along if the vast majority spent 5 minutes looking for every drive. Just because an occurrence is rare doesn't mean it can't hold its weight for a rule

Expansion.

So in your opinion, the only rules should be ones which reward you?  It should be impossible to ever do anything wrong or commit a foul?  I'm sorry, but that sounds like a really stupid game.  It's been said more than once in this and in a few other threads on this site why this rule exists in its current form.  Your way and several other variations have been tested in the past and rejected as unworkable within the principles of the game.  No more needs be said.

Rules change doesn't happen just because someone bitches about one.  Rules change occurs primarily when inconsistencies arise in situations during competition.  I'm quite certain that most of the common complaints have been discussed ad nauseum by the USGA and R&A; rules committees and rejected for lack of merit.

[Duff McGee]

In society, when we deem laws or rules to be unfair, we generally change or get rid of them. I'm pretty sure fairness is supposed to be inherent in most rule books. The question is whether you deem the current rule fair, which you do, correct?

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duff McGee

In society, when we deem laws or rules to be unfair, we generally change or get rid of them. I'm pretty sure fairness is supposed to be inherent in most rule books.

The question is whether you deem the current rule fair, which you do, correct?

You beat around the bush, but you didn't respond to my request.  Where do the Rules of Golf say that there is anything fair about the game?  I can give you the answer if that helps.  The closest you will get is Rule 1-4.

Quote:

1-4 . Points Not Covered by Rules

If any point in dispute is not covered by the Rules , the decision should be made in accordance with equity.

The rules treat like situations the same even when not specifically addressed in the rules.  That is the essence of fairness, impersonal and impartial.

[ColinL]

[Mac62]

In society, when we deem laws or rules to be unfair, we generally change or get rid of them. I'm pretty sure fairness is supposed to be inherent in most rule books.

The question is whether you deem the current rule fair, which you do, correct?

It's fair because everybody on the course you're playing, or in your tournament field (if that's the case) are playing by the same rules and are affected the exact same way by them.  How much more fair can it be?

Sure there's a difference at professional tournaments with galleries and video cameras - and if you were playing in that field with those competitors, you'd have the same "advantage" they do.  On the local muni when you're playing with other weekend warriors, you're also all on a level playing field.  It's not like some of them have galleries, forecaddies and TV cameras and you don't.  If the guy five holes ahead of you hits his ball into a pile of leaves and can't find it, he has to take stroke and distance just like you do.  Same with the guy five holes behind you.  All of your scores will be impacted the exact same way.  How is that unfair?

As you have admitted, you don't like the rule because you don't like how it affects your score.  It affects everybody else's score the exact same way.  You can argue that a better player isn't affected by it as much because he won't hit balls into those situations as often, but that's part of the game - and that's why they're better players with lower handicaps.

It seems that a couple of the posters in this thread want to define "fairness" as "making sure that everybody can shoot as low a score as possible".  To me, "fairness" means that everybody is playing by the same rules, which is exactly the case under the current rules.

[Duff McGee]

It's fair because everybody on the course you're playing, or in your tournament field (if that's the case) are playing by the same rules and are affected the exact same way by them.  How much more fair can it be? Sure there's a difference at professional tournaments with galleries and video cameras - and if you were playing in that field with those competitors, you'd have the same "advantage" they do.  On the local muni when you're playing with other weekend warriors, you're also all on a level playing field.  It's not like some of them have galleries, forecaddies and TV cameras and you don't.  If the guy five holes ahead of you hits his ball into a pile of leaves and can't find it, he has to take stroke and distance just like you do.  Same with the guy five holes behind you.  All of your scores will be impacted the exact same way.  How is that unfair? As you have admitted, you don't like the rule because you don't like how it affects your score.  It affects everybody else's score the exact same way.  You can argue that a better player isn't affected by it as much because he won't hit balls into those situations as often, but that's part of the game - and that's why they're better players with lower handicaps.  It seems that a couple of the posters in this thread want to define "fairness" as "making sure that everybody can shoot as low a score as possible".  To me, "fairness" means that everybody is playing by the same rules, which is exactly the case under the current rules.

That is true to an extent, but my handicap isn't just based on my play with those people on that certain day. But anyway I will go back to my "not going to comment anymore" but it's hard when people are responding directly to me.

[DrvFrShow]

I'll just make one comment and leave the discussion. I have never except during competitive league play or higher, seen anyone walk back to the tee or to their previous shot location during a weekday round and rehit a shot after losing a ball. Never, in 120 rounds of golf. People just do not do that. They drop a ball where they think it was lost and play from there with either a 1 or 2 stroke penalty. That's the way they play. Because to do otherwise would hold up play on the course even more. Maybe you do, too, but no one will admit it in a rules forum or anywhere on the internet in a discussion about rules.

In a competitive tournament it's a different story. But then the course is closed for casual play.

[boogielicious]

This has been a good discussion. I would remind the posters to not get too heated in responses. We are discussing a rule of golf and possible modifications. There is no need to get personal in responses.

[newtogolf]

I'm going to take a wild guess and say that no one in this thread has ever had a forecaddie. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. Anyway, if they can afford it, awesome for them. They maybe won't lose one ball a round. But wealthy people can also afford more lessons. And new drivers that go 19 yards farther. And can play more often. To all of which my answer is "so what?" When they develop the ball finding technology that's reliable and approved, the average golfer probably won't be able to afford it at first anyway. In the end, you have to hit the ball to where you can find it. That's the entire game.

Sorry, I play with forecaddies 2 - 3 times per week, my home club requires the use of them on some weekdays and every weekend unless it's late in the afternoon to maintain pace of play.  Even with a forecaddie, there's no guarantee in a 4 some that the forecaddie will see where everyones ball will land as they may be looking for another ball, raking a bunker or using a rangefinder to provide distance.

Our foursomes always look out for their fellow golfers and watch where the balls go whether we use a forecaddie or not.  We hardly ever lose a ball.

[newtogolf]

Speaking of hitting provisionals.....I would have to hit a provisional anytime my ball was not visible in the fairway after teeing off. This would not be a realistic solution.

The point is, many of us not great golfers have hit a ball, watched it roll off the fairway, driven or walked right up to where it was, spent 2 minutes looking for it as others are watching us back on the tee box on a busy day. You are damned if you do, damned if you don't in that situation.

You would be the most hated person in town if you went back to the tee box (see the slow play thread for evidence of what it would be like) or hit a provisional any time you can't see your ball from the tee box, which would also be a big issue for those around you.

Tournaments are different in that the other golfers understand that you need to take time to look for your ball or hit tons of provisionals. A weekend on your local muni not so much.

You're right, there are extreme examples where someone hits a ball that hits the fairway and we watch it roll off so everyone thinks it's safe yet when we reach the area we can't find it either due to excess leaves or really heavy rough.  It does happens, maybe .01% of the time during the season and slightly more often off season when the leaves cover much of the rough.

More often what I've seen happen is a guy sees his ball heading straight down the middle of the fairway, loses it in the sun and then the ball slices way off to the right (righty golfer) into the woods.  It happened yesterday, my partner hit the ball and said he lost it but it should be right in the middle of the fairway.  I corrected him and said, no it's way off in the trees on the right and he exclaims "no way, right before I lost it, it was right in the middle of the fairway".   Sure enough we found his ball sitting behind a bunch of trees on the right.

You also keep talking about the pro's but not every pro has a huge gallery watching them play.  Guys on the web.com and lower tours probably don't have any galleries during the week but they aren't pushing the USGA to change the rule and their careers and income are on the line.

Overall I don't care if they permit RFID or not, but you're coming really close to making the same arguments that the guys who want to use non-conforming equipment and have greens with larger holes make because you all deem the game under the current rules is too hard.  Golf is hard, the rules reward those that keep the ball on the fairway and penalize those that don't.

If RFID becomes cost effective then maybe the USGA will have to reconsider their position but I can only see that happening if they decide to create separate rules for pro's and amateurs.  Heck they won't even let the pro's use range finders during tournament play, so I can't imagine RFID would be permitted.

Plus imagine how annoyed you would be when your new wedge cuts a smiley into a shiny new $7 RFID ball or you sink a few into the local lake.

[saevel25]

Overall I don't care if they permit RFID or not, but you're coming really close to making the same arguments that the guys who want to use non-conforming equipment and have greens with larger holes make because you all deem the game under the current rules is too hard.  Golf is hard, the rules reward those that keep the ball on the fairway and penalize those that don't.

If RFID becomes cost effective then maybe the USGA will have to reconsider their position but I can only see that happening if they decide to create separate rules for pro's and amateurs.  Heck they won't even let the pro's use range finders during tournament play, so I can't imagine RFID would be permitted.

Plus imagine how annoyed you would be when your new wedge cuts a smiley into a shiny new $7 RFID ball or you sink a few into the local lake.

I'm not a fan of the RFID. I think part of golf is having to go find your ball. I don't think the USGA will every allow it in tournament play. If that is the case I doubt they will allow it under the rules of golf. Golf is meant be uniform across all fields of play.

I think the range finder issue is going to change in the near future since they are allowing it in their amateur tournaments.