Lost Ball Rule is Stupid

[krupa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by krupa

Don't you think, though, that maybe the use of technology in this area is a little overkill?  I mean, you are literally suggesting that we use satellites in SPACE to find your golf ball.

Seems like a red herring. The driver he hit to lose that ball with is using technology from the space program. Who cares? If a solution becomes available that both works and is cost effective, awesome. I already use GPS on every single shot on the course anyway with game golf.

Well... technically it's not a red herring since I'm not intending to mislead.  I do believe that we are very casual with how we throw technology at "problems" and that as we continue to use complex technology to "solve" simple inconveniences it will become less and less cost effective.  I also use game golf but I use the cell phone app so I can sleep at night because the components are reused for multiple purposes (mostly to keep me from getting lost when traveling).

[DrvFrShow]

Maybe the whole idea here is during your weekend round with your friends, since the courses are so crowded and we're playing 5-6 hour rounds as it is, is not to take the damned game so seriously. If you're out there shooting 100 or over, who the heck cares if you drop a ball at the approximate location and take a two stroke penalty? No one. And I've got another idea. If you're shooting 100 or over and hit your ball into the woods don't spend five minutes trying to hack it out of there. I'd rather see you toss it out onto the fairway so I can complete my round while I'm still young - relatively speaking. Especially if you don't have a GHIN card. Call it a practice round. But I'm more than tired of the 2-1/2 to 3 hours per 9 holes than I am about sticklers for the rules. Really slow play makes my score go up, not because I get mad, but because my bones start stiffening up and the only way to keep things loose is to violate the ROG and take out my orange whip at times when I'm waiting for Kevin Na to finish the 14 practice swings on the fairway. Of course he's waiting for Tiger to finish lining up his 6' putt on the green - you're gonna two putt it anyway: just putt it.

Remind me not to play on a weekend again.

When you're playing a real round in league or playing for your HC, by all means follow the rules.

[Grumpter]

Don't you think, though, that maybe the use of technology in this area is a little overkill?  I mean, you are literally suggesting that we use satellites in SPACE to find your golf ball.

Not at all. A player on tour can have 100 people looking for their ball or a thousand witnesses to see where it landed or a TV camera following the ball the whole way eventually pinpointing where it landed and stayed in that pine tree or a blimp able to see the shot from 10,000 feet in the air etc.. The average player is not afforded the same resources.

[dkolo]

Well... technically it's not a red herring since I'm not intending to mislead.  I do believe that we are very casual with how we throw technology at "problems" and that as we continue to use complex technology to "solve" simple inconveniences it will become less and less cost effective.  I also use game golf but I use the cell phone app so I can sleep at night because the components are reused for multiple purposes (mostly to keep me from getting lost when traveling).

I also use the app. I'm just saying, how complicated the underlying tech is is completely irrelevant and attempts to diminish the point by making it seem unworthy of such resources: there's a problem, we have a potential avenue for a solution, and there's demand. You could've made the satellites from space argument just as easily about calculating distances to the flag. I'd argue that that function is even less important to the game than finding your ball. I don't think folks who hope for a tech-based solution to the problem are remotely unreasonable: we've been saying throughout the thread that the stroke and distance rule is the best solution we have under the rules, but it still sucks considering how random and (I use this word loosely) "unfair" it can be sometimes. I don't know if GPS or RFID or whatever tech balls are feasible, but I think it's absolutely a worthy avenue to pursue.

[Duff McGee]

Not at all. A player on tour can have 100 people looking for their ball or a thousand witnesses to see where it landed or a TV camera following the ball the whole way eventually pinpointing where it landed and stayed in that pine tree or a blimp able to see the shot from 10,000 feet in the air etc.. The average player is not afforded the same resources.

Apparently we are stupid for pointing this out. We are also stupid for pointing out how the rule hurts pace of play And finally, we are very stupid for wanting technology to help this problem..... It's starting to seem like people just like tradition and want it to stay the same bc that's the way it is. Sounds a bit to me like the instant replay opponents.

[David in FL]

Apparently we are stupid for pointing this out. We are also stupid for pointing out how the rule hurts pace of play And finally, we are very stupid for wanting technology to help this problem..... It's starting to seem like people just like tradition and want it to stay the same bc that's the way it is. Sounds a bit to me like the instant replay opponents.

18 pages and over 300 posts, and that's what you've come away with? :blink:

[Duff McGee]

18 pages and over 300 posts, and that's what you've come away with? :blink:

Yes for some of the posters. I'm not saying all of you have been like this but when people are basically talking about how we have taken it too far bc we would use satellites from outer space to find out balls you know there is something else motivating their resistance to change. I've already admitted that you guys have made good arguments against changing the rule. But to resist technology that can 1) speed up play and 2) actually help you find a ball that is not OB, you are essentially digging your heels in and saying "no! No change!"

[saevel25]

I don't think folks who hope for a tech-based solution to the problem are remotely unreasonable: we've been saying throughout the thread that the stroke and distance rule is the best solution we have under the rules, but it still sucks considering how random and (I use this word loosely) "unfair" it can be sometimes. I don't know if GPS or RFID or whatever tech balls are feasible, but I think it's absolutely a worthy avenue to pursue.

There is no way to use the word loosely. It's either unfair or it's not unfair.

Why should one lost ball be considered any different than another lost ball? Basically it's not unfair. It only seems unfair because you received a unlucky break. Guess what, luck is part of sports. You get good bounces and bad bounces. I've seen golf balls head towards a side slope only to kick forward instead of right or left into some what would be a crappy lie. It's part of the game.

Not all good shots are rewarded in golf. Not all bad shots are punished in golf. In the long run they balance out.

Apparently we are stupid for pointing this out.

Nope, you just think so because many people don't agree with you.

We are also stupid for pointing out how the rule hurts pace of play

The issue is, it doesn't slow down pace of play. It happens so infrequently it's a negligible effect on pace of play. What hurts pace of play is people not understanding the use of the concept called, provisional.

It's starting to seem like people just like tradition and want it to stay the same bc that's the way it is. Sounds a bit to me like the instant replay opponents.

No, people just realize this is a trivial matter. If you have an issue with losing golf balls then fix your own golf game. Golf is a game of good bounces and bad bounces. They equal out over time. Nothing stated above has enough sway to even come close for the need to change the rules.

[Duff McGee]

There is no way to use the word loosely. It's either unfair or it's not unfair. Why should one lost ball be considered any different than another lost ball? Basically it's not unfair. It only seems unfair because you received a unlucky break. Guess what, luck is part of sports. You get good bounces and bad bounces. I've seen golf balls head towards a side slope only to kick forward instead of right or left into some what would be a crappy lie. It's part of the game. Not all good shots are rewarded in golf. Not all bad shots are punished in golf. In the long run they balance out.  Nope, you just think so because many people don't agree with you.  The issue is, it doesn't slow down pace of play. It happens so infrequently it's a negligible effect on pace of play. What hurts pace of play is people not understanding the use of the concept called, provisional.  No, people just realize this is a trivial matter. If you have an issue with losing golf balls then fix your own golf game. Golf is a game of good bounces and bad bounces. They equal out over time. Nothing stated above has enough sway to even come close for the need to change the rules.

Please see my following post. I may have worded it badly but that's not what I'm saying. My response is not geared towards you or the other reasonable posters. It is geared towards the posters who are coming up with cockamamie "reasons" not to allow technology help the issue. These people would still have a problem with technology if it didn't cost any more and it worked 99.9999% of the time.

[krupa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by David in FL

18 pages and over 300 posts, and that's what you've come away with?

Yes for some of the posters. I'm not saying all of you have been like this but when people are basically talking about how we have taken it too far bc we would use satellites from outer space to find out balls you know there is something else motivating their resistance to change.

I've already admitted that you guys have made good arguments against changing the rule.

But to resist technology that can 1) speed up play and 2) actually help you find a ball that is not OB, you are essentially digging your heels in and saying "no! No change!"

I just have a different perspective on the application of technology.  And I actually haven't resisted it.  I have simply and repeatedly pointed out that technology will break and you will still need a rule for when you lose your ball.

[David in FL]

I just have a different perspective on the application of technology.  And I actually haven't resisted it.  I have simply and repeatedly pointed out that technology will break and you will still need a rule for when you lose your ball.

Yup. Or for those that choose, for whatever reason, not to use that technology. Surely no one would advocate that only chipped balls be allowed on the course. Then again....

[dkolo]

There is no way to use the word loosely. It's either unfair or it's not unfair.

Why should one lost ball be considered any different than another lost ball? Basically it's not unfair. It only seems unfair because you received a unlucky break. Guess what, luck is part of sports. You get good bounces and bad bounces. I've seen golf balls head towards a side slope only to kick forward instead of right or left into some what would be a crappy lie. It's part of the game.

Not all good shots are rewarded in golf. Not all bad shots are punished in golf. In the long run they balance out.

I referenced that word "unfair" as a nod to the people who've kept making that argument in the thread. The rest of the post stands: I'm talking about this technology as a black box. I don't know what it will consist of but I assume it will result in you being able to find you ball through the tech with no other changes to the status quo. I don't think something that helps ensure that you find your ball will fundamentally alter the nature of the game. I think it may change the risk calculus some, but I can't say for sure one way or another. Like I said, I think that standing over your ball but still not finding it is a bad break, but one that I don't believe is worth preserving. Is ball-finding tech different than a high-optic yellow ball? I don't think it is. In any event, I believe this would improve the game without altering its character. Do you think something that helps you find your ball would change the nature of the game?

(Have I said think and believe enough? Just checking.)

[Grumpter]

.... now what would be even better than a RFID chip to help you find a 'lost' ball would be the technology to immediately determine if a ball was O/B. It would require the course O/B was mapped to GPS satellites. You hit a tee shot and your GPS gives you the 'Wunh wun wah wah' sound effect (below). You know you are SOL and hit another shot taking the appropriate penalty.

Somebody should crowd source fund that.

[Duff McGee]

I don't think I am explaining myself properly so here is my opinion in a nutshell: 1) I don't think people questioning this rule should be viewed as the enemy and a threat to the traditions of the game. We follow the rules. That is why we care. 2) just saying "a ball is lost so it is lost" is being a tad bit disingenuous in my opinion. There are different levels of "lost." Not technically of course, but in equity. You can't just say "well pros have a gallery watching so they are at a disadvantage there." The fact of the matter is, whenever there are more people looking for your ball, the odds are better that you will find it. That is inherently unfair because the rule as applied depends not on the quality of shot or where the ball actually is many times, but who saw it and where and how many people (or cameras) located it. Saying balls bounce back in play so it's a wash is irrelevant to the topic. Saying that pros have other hard things to deal with is irrelevant. Saying that technology can break is irrelevant. We should all agree that the rules and principles of golf should support and encourage finding a ball in play. The reason for the rule is so people don't get an unfair advantage by placing the ball where they think it should be. A lost ball means no one knows where it is. I get that. But the policy values should always support the truth and if the ball is in play we should try everything we can to help golfers find the ball quickly. You guys have demonstrated that there has not been a proposed rules change that can help with this. So you have succeeded in convincing me that this is the least harmful of a rule for a bad situation as can be CUURENTLY. But I posit that if technology is proven to be effective AND at least somewhat cost effective to fix this problem AND help with slow play, that we should accept and encourage it.

[DrvFrShow]

Well, here's the deal about provisional balls.

* people will still spend 5 minutes looking for the ball they hit into the woods. People will look for $3-4 balls.

* hitting the provisional in the fairway is not a guarantee

* if they hit their 1st provisional into the woods, they'll look for that one too.

* sometimes they'll find the first ball but lose the provisional

* if they find their first ball deep in the woods they'll try to hack it out. I've seen this take one to three attempts. One attempt? Fine. Two and still not out? Just toss it onto the fairway and hit your next shot unless you're in a tournament or other competition.

If you want to speed up play on weekends just add a "Recreational Golf Rule - Lost Ball = drop in the rough at best estimated distance +1 stroke."

And make it so that only competition rounds may be reported for handicap purposes. This means your league and tournament rounds.

[Rulesman]

1) If you want to speed up play on weekends just add a "Recreational Golf Rule - Lost Ball = drop in the rough at best estimated distance +1 stroke."

2) And make it so that only competition rounds may be reported for handicap purposes. This means your league and tournament rounds.

1) It doesn't need a rule. Those who think there should be probably just do it already.

2) A bit like over here. But the vibes from the UHS body suggests the movement may be the other way. God forbid.

[dkolo]

Well, here's the deal about provisional balls. * people will still spend 5 minutes looking for the ball they hit into the woods. People will look for $3-4 balls. * hitting the provisional in the fairway is not a guarantee * if they hit their 1st provisional into the woods, they'll look for that one too. * sometimes they'll find the first ball but lose the provisional * if they find their first ball deep in the woods they'll try to hack it out. I've seen this take one to three attempts. One attempt? Fine. Two and still not out? Just toss it onto the fairway and hit your next shot unless you're in a tournament or other competition. If you want to speed up play on weekends just add a "Recreational Golf Rule - Lost Ball = drop in the rough at best estimated distance +1 stroke." And make it so that only competition rounds may be reported for handicap purposes. This means your league and tournament rounds.

I think it's more likely that Skynet becomes self aware and starts messing with our GPS golf balls than this sort of rule getting any traction with the governing bodies, haha.

[DrvFrShow]

I'm just a bit grouchy from a 6 hour round yesterday.