The Definitive Pace of Play Thread

[RGoosen]

I agree waving people through on a par 3 seems to be the simplest way to let people play through.

So many things could be suggested to improve pace of play, unless people are considerate of others things will either never change or change very little.  "There are drivers that are slow and drive in the fast lane but won't move over to let you pass, and there are golfers that want to play the max time for a round at 4hr 20min and don't give a rats behind that you have to wait"

Because I realize it only takes one group to slow the whole course down, I will dive over an hour to ensure I tee off in one of the 1st 3 groups of the day to increase the likelihood I will finish in 3-4 hours maximum time.  80%-90% of golfers that will tee off prior to 7:30am. The only time I really get angry is the 4-some with the 1st couple of tee times that want to force everybody behind them to play in over 4 hours.

[Flyrdrive]

Thought I'd post some comments as I'm into my 4th year as a Starter at a nice resort course.  Understand, resort courses don't operate like private or public courses do.  The Resort here is the Big Dog, the golf course is just an "amenity" like a water park or similar.  Probably 2/3rds of the Resort guests don't play golf, or don't play regularly.  The course does allow memberships for some of the local residents though.

Problem #1--  2/3rds of the Resort guests don't play golf, or don't play regularly.  Which guarantees those rounds are going to be 5 hours or more if those folks play.

Problem #2-- Never piss off the Resort guests.  Any negative feedback on social media is immediately flagged and brought to management's attention for action.  Seriously, the Resort has a department whose job it is to monitor social media for any mention of their property.

Problem #3, This really isn't a good golf course for anyone who normally shoots 90+.  (Most of our resort guests)  It's a great course, well-known architect, difficult greens.  Tour players seldom break 69 (par 72), and course record is 65 by a Tour player.  So it's not a pushover.

Problem #4  The Resort management, (not the course management) runs the show.  But then the members think THEY should run the show.  Of course, the Resort Guests, who paid $400 for one night and unlimited golf think they are the reason we exist.  Then there's the corporate groups who book 100 rooms and schedule an outing with 80 players, they KNOW they own the whole facility.  None of them know half of what's going on for the day.

 

Our "standard" pace of play is 4:20.  Our regular members can usually make it around in 4:00 in a foursome, but many singles and twosomes do it in 2:30.  I have played with the golf shop staff in 3:00 easily, but we aren't spending all day looking for golf balls in knee deep grass.  (totally useless waste of time anyway, you won't find it unless you step on it.  Might get snake bit too.)  If we have more than 80 golfers for the day, it's almost a sure bet the pace will drag out to 4:45 or more by noon.  Large Corporate outings average 5 hours or more for 18 holes.  Of course, corporate outings seem more like drinking tournaments with a little golf thrown in.

Fully HALF of our golfers think it "normal" to arrive at the pro shop 10-15 minutes (or less) before their TEE TIME.  This isn't just the Resort guests, but also the drive-ins from the nearby cities.  I know most folks on this site are semi-serious golfers, and wouldn't do that, but a VERY LARGE percentage  of weekend golfers do.  Then, by the time they get their cart loaded, get some range balls which they won't have time to hit, go back to their car for whatever gear they forgot, and make it the 1/4 mile to the range, it's already their TEE TIME, and they STILL haven't ordered their beers/bloody marys/tequila&OJ, etc.  If I can get them to the tee within 2 minutes of their TEE TIME, I'm doing well.  Of course, they will still then spend the next 5 minutes fishing gear out of their bags, applying sun screen, marking balls, proposing wagers, etc before the first ball leaves the Tee.

Fully HALF of our golfers are playing from the wrong Tees.  Just because they play "blue" on the muni track at 6200 yds back home doesn't mean they should play blue at 6800 yds on a real golf course, but I can't tell them that.  I might as well be asking them to turn in their man card.  I myself haven't played from the blues here in 5 years, because I'm 60, and I'd like to hit 8 into a green designed for an 8 or 9 iron shot, not a 4 iron.

True ready golf is still a foreign concept to many golfers, and I guess, because we are a Resort, drinking is often to excess.

Honestly, on average, the people I've joined on a $35 muni track probably have more sense and courtesy than many of our high-dollar guests.  I could do a two page rant on how our "guests" sometimes treat the equipment and property.  I could classify some of it as vandalism, not just sloppiness.

I personally think EVERY customer service business ought to throw the worst 10% of their customers off the property as a regular business practice.  The world might actually become a nicer place after a few years. 

[RGoosen]

^

I am not shocked by any of this.   Certainly courses tend to attract clients that have an sense of entitlement.

It seems like every survey about golf enquiring about what needs improving lists "pace of play" as the #1 issue.  Yet things don't change.  Where is the middle ground for what most people consider acceptable pace vs what amount of time can most golfers actually finish their round?

I can play as fast as anyone else on here and enjoy my round.  However, I can't set unrealistic expectations either.

Maybe the emphasis should be on what should we all do to encourage a reasonable pace and let the actual pace take care of itself...

- Playing ready golf instead of always playing in turn, two players max looking for a ball (you don't need all 4 players looking), 30 seconds max looking for a ball, carrying extra balls in your pocket (in case you have to tee off again), and playing the appropriate yardage corrisponding to how far you actually hit the ball.

It sounds simple, yet things will likely never change.

[Strandly]

Getting pretty sick of being stuck behind groups of 5 and slow foursomes.  Doesn't seem to matter what time of day I roll out there, course will be empty except the four or fivesome that just happened to get there 5 minutes before me.  Everyone from the shop staff to the players are nice, but they're probably too nice.  I'm looking forward to getting out of here and back to courses that at least make a half-ass attempt to police the pace of play.

[DaveP043]

I'll admit, I played in a 5-some yesterday.  The course was not crowded, because of the forecast for rain.  We kept up with the group in front, and kept an eye out behind us.  We played even more "ready golf" than we normally would, to be sure we went as quickly as possible.  We'd have split up, or asked a faster group to play through, but that was never necessary.  We finished in 4:05.

We're just beating a dead horse, but we did nothing differently than every single group should do, whether its a twosome or a gangsome..  Be aware of your position on the course, play ready golf, be willing to allow faster groups through.

[Fourputt]

It's easy to say "We play ready golf", but I've been in groups that played ready golf and still weren't very good at conserving time.  I think that one more point needs to be addressed on the subject - you need to always be ready to play ready golf when the time comes to hit your ball.  If you are going to play out of order, then do it promptly.  Don't say I'll play first!" then take 45 seconds or a minute to go through your routine, while your buddy stands around waiting, only to do the same.  That isn't ready golf, that's slow golf.

There is more to ready golf than just playing out of turn at times.  It's making the most efficient use of your time, (either when waiting on the group ahead or waiting on your companions to play) so that when your chance comes to play you are as close as possible to being 100% ready to pull the trigger, not just starting to load the gun.

[Brad W]

my wife and I are both learning together (well, re-learning after multi decade sabbaticals).

Honestly I'm always feeling rushed, but I am getting used to it.  We don't spend a lot of time looking for balls, or getting ready.  We are always ready to play when our time is up.  That said, we are fairly slow I think.  We are conscience of people behind us and will adjust to a scramble style of play to quicken our pace if it is busy.  It helps that we tend to play afternoons and the courses around us are slower then (north westerners have a very low tolerance for strong sun and heat)

yesterday we played the front nine at a local course and we were held up the entire time by a foursome in front of us.  I totally get learning the game and being a newb, but we were at the most expensive public course in the county, it was a full day, and one of the guys in the foursome was really fooking the whole business up pretty well.  

He was taking five practice swings then hitting the ball ten yds, maybe 20.  He'd walk out to the ball then do it again, then walk all the way back to the carts... rather than his group rolling up to meet him.  We would also see them mid hole just standing there like they were having a conversation or something.  It got progressively worse as we went through the holes, to the point where by the time we rolled onto the 9th T, they were just pulling away... WTF ??

There was another foursome behind us, but I think they knew it wasn't us.  They pulled to the T a few times while we were standing mid fairway with clubs in our hands, waiting.

Like I said, we are somewhat slow, but damn, if we were waiting for this group, they were really slow.  I can see how this would bother people when it happens regularly.  Until joining this site I didn't really know it was such a big issue.

Anyway, when we finished up our nine, we reported them to the starter as we left.  I don't know if they did anything about it, but it seemed like he was going to

I have several pictures of the day like this.... standing there waiting

[No Mulligans]

18 minutes ago, Brad W said:

Anyway, when we finished up our nine, we reported them to the starter as we left.  I don't know if they did anything about it, but it seemed like he was going to

If there are several groups being held up you can call the pro shop mid round and ask for a Marshall.  As a twosome it is not unusual to be held up by a foursome and that is okay, the foursome can't be expected to play as fast as a twosome.  But, when you and the foursome behind are being held up and there are clear holes ahead of the slow group, give the pro shop a call.

[Brad W]

good to know, I'll keep that in mind for next time.

It makes sense that four would hold up two, at least a little.  But yeah, this was bad.

 

 

[metbid]

On ‎8‎/‎16‎/‎2015 at 2:03 PM, JonMA1 said:

I didn't realize how much time a cart can save until I rode 18 this morning. I was the first one out and because I have a cold, chose to ride. Finished the first 9 in just over an hour. Got stuck behind a foursome and then a threesome on the back 9. Both groups eventually let me play through, but there was a lot of waiting and still finished the 18 well short of 3hrs.

Carts are great if you are on a fairly open course, but hey can be a pain if you get behind slow groups because you are waiting so much.

They can also cause contention. I like to walk, my partner likes to walk. We were in a tournament and our opponents were riding, our pace of play was quite adequate (the group behind never had to wait on a tee box), but one of the other guys kept saying 'we need to keep up the pace' which started to irritate my partner.  Fortunately, he didn't have a knife in his bag.

On another note, I was playing in a threesome once, we were walking, we saw no one on the hole ahead, ditto hole 2, then as we went to hole 3 we saw 2 carts at first shot from the tee box.  Over the next 4 holes we waited on them as both carts drove to the first person's ball, all piled out, watched him hit, drove to the second players ball, all got out, all watched him hit, drove to the third players ball....repeat....repeat....repeat.  They finally realized we were behind them and let us through.  By the time we finished the next hole we never saw them again.

[JonMA1]

30 minutes ago, metbid said:

Fortunately, he didn't have a knife in his bag.

Well played @metbid.

[Fourputt]

6 hours ago, metbid said:

Carts are great if you are on a fairly open course, but hey can be a pain if you get behind slow groups because you are waiting so much.

They can also cause contention. I like to walk, my partner likes to walk. We were in a tournament and our opponents were riding, our pace of play was quite adequate (the group behind never had to wait on a tee box), but one of the other guys kept saying 'we need to keep up the pace' which started to irritate my partner.  Fortunately, he didn't have a knife in his bag.

 

FYI, you don't look behind to see if you are on pace, you look ahead.  If you can't see the group in front of you then it doesn't matter that you can't see the group behind you.  All that means is that they are even slower than you are, but it is not an indicator that you playing at a good pace.

[JonMA1]

4 hours ago, Fourputt said:

FYI, you don't look behind to see if you are on pace, you look ahead.  If you can't see the group in front of you then it doesn't matter that you can't see the group behind you.  All that means is that they are even slower than you are, but it is not an indicator that you playing at a good pace.

There have been numerous times when I start getting close to the group ahead who are seemingly playing slow. But once they look back and see someone is behind them, they kick it into another gear. I have absolutely no issue with that.

I think I understand your point, however. On a busy course, once you realize you're playing slowly, you've likely already created the bottleneck.

[imsys0042]

On 8/21/2016 at 4:53 PM, Flyrdrive said:

Problem #4  The Resort management, (not the course management) runs the show.  But then the members think THEY should run the show.  Of course, the Resort Guests, who paid $400 for one night and unlimited golf think they are the reason we exist.  Then there's the corporate groups who book 100 rooms and schedule an outing with 80 players, they KNOW they own the whole facility.  None of them know half of what's going on for the day.

Our "standard" pace of play is 4:20.  Our regular members can usually make it around in 4:00 in a foursome, but many singles and twosomes do it in 2:30.  I have played with the golf shop staff in 3:00 easily, but we aren't spending all day looking for golf balls in knee deep grass.  (totally useless waste of time anyway, you won't find it unless you step on it.  Might get snake bit too.)  If we have more than 80 golfers for the day, it's almost a sure bet the pace will drag out to 4:45 or more by noon.  Large Corporate outings average 5 hours or more for 18 holes.  Of course, corporate outings seem more like drinking tournaments with a little golf thrown in.

Fully HALF of our golfers think it "normal" to arrive at the pro shop 10-15 minutes (or less) before their TEE TIME.  This isn't just the Resort guests, but also the drive-ins from the nearby cities.  I know most folks on this site are semi-serious golfers, and wouldn't do that, but a VERY LARGE percentage  of weekend golfers do.  Then, by the time they get their cart loaded, get some range balls which they won't have time to hit, go back to their car for whatever gear they forgot, and make it the 1/4 mile to the range, it's already their TEE TIME, and they STILL haven't ordered their beers/bloody marys/tequila&OJ, etc.  If I can get them to the tee within 2 minutes of their TEE TIME, I'm doing well.  Of course, they will still then spend the next 5 minutes fishing gear out of their bags, applying sun screen, marking balls, proposing wagers, etc before the first ball leaves the Tee.

Fully HALF of our golfers are playing from the wrong Tees.  Just because they play "blue" on the muni track at 6200 yds back home doesn't mean they should play blue at 6800 yds on a real golf course, but I can't tell them that.  I might as well be asking them to turn in their man card.  I myself haven't played from the blues here in 5 years, because I'm 60, and I'd like to hit 8 into a green designed for an 8 or 9 iron shot, not a 4 iron.

True ready golf is still a foreign concept to many golfers, and I guess, because we are a Resort, drinking is often to excess.

Honestly, on average, the people I've joined on a $35 muni track probably have more sense and courtesy than many of our high-dollar guests.  I could do a two page rant on how our "guests" sometimes treat the equipment and property.  I could classify some of it as vandalism, not just sloppiness.

It doesn't apply to everyone, but people with high paying jobs seem to get a sense of entitlement that comes along with their paycheck.   Everything above could apply to my course.   Lot of people who think they own the place.  and guess what?!  They clog up the golf course in fivesomes, drinking binges and take their damn sweet time with people waiting in the fairway!    And it's a devil of a golf course with two sets of men's tees.  Yet people insist on playing from the back set of men's tees who have no business!

On 8/22/2016 at 0:01 AM, RGoosen said:

^

I am not shocked by any of this.   Certainly courses tend to attract clients that have an sense of entitlement.

It seems like every survey about golf enquiring about what needs improving lists "pace of play" as the #1 issue.  Yet things don't change.  Where is the middle ground for what most people consider acceptable pace vs what amount of time can most golfers actually finish their round?

I can play as fast as anyone else on here and enjoy my round.  However, I can't set unrealistic expectations either.

Maybe the emphasis should be on what should we all do to encourage a reasonable pace and let the actual pace take care of itself...

- Playing ready golf instead of always playing in turn, two players max looking for a ball (you don't need all 4 players looking), 30 seconds max looking for a ball, carrying extra balls in your pocket (in case you have to tee off again), and playing the appropriate yardage corrisponding to how far you actually hit the ball.

It sounds simple, yet things will likely never change.

It's a selfish mentality.   "I paid my money and I am going to do what I want!"  etc..  No one cares that other people paid the same money!   Also, no one ever thinks they are slow.  I have been in slow groups, been well aware and done what I can to speed things along.  I also have had plenty of times where I am not slow, nor in a slow group, and someone came behind who was fast.   But it's rare to find someone who admits they are slow and try to do better.

20 hours ago, Fourputt said:

It's easy to say "We play ready golf", but I've been in groups that played ready golf and still weren't very good at conserving time.  I think that one more point needs to be addressed on the subject - you need to always be ready to play ready golf when the time comes to hit your ball.  If you are going to play out of order, then do it promptly.  Don't say I'll play first!" then take 45 seconds or a minute to go through your routine, while your buddy stands around waiting, only to do the same.  That isn't ready golf, that's slow golf.

There is more to ready golf than just playing out of turn at times.  It's making the most efficient use of your time, (either when waiting on the group ahead or waiting on your companions to play) so that when your chance comes to play you are as close as possible to being 100% ready to pull the trigger, not just starting to load the gun.

A lot of people seem to do this for the sake of appearance, or just don't understand.  I happen to not be an overly patient person, so when I see an opportunity to hit out of turn when other people are ready I jump on it.  But I don't if it doesn't make sense.   I just want to hit and get to the next shot.  

I did have an idea while reading the last page.   I wonder what would happen with GPS carts and if there was a $5 extra charge in your greens fee.  If you come in on pace, you get the $5 back.  If there is a slow group that held you up, but you were waiting on them and not behind, you get your $5 back.  The slow group doesn't get their money back.  A pro shop staff with a good backbone could try that.

[Jeremie Boop]

6 hours ago, Fourputt said:

FYI, you don't look behind to see if you are on pace, you look ahead.  If you can't see the group in front of you then it doesn't matter that you can't see the group behind you.  All that means is that they are even slower than you are, but it is not an indicator that you playing at a good pace.

That's a bit dependent on the number of players in each group and how busy the course is. If you are a foursome behind a twosome it may not be possible to keep up with them if the course is pretty open in front of that twosome. Not keeping up the the twosome in that case does not mean that you aren't playing at a good pace. However, on a busy course where there are no gaps then absolutely the best way to know that you are in position is by your groups position in regards to that of the one in front of you.

[mcanadiens]

24 minutes ago, imsys0042 said:

But it's rare to find someone who admits they are slow and try to do better.

When you do find this person, 99.9% of the time they are a straight beginner.

[Fourputt]

2 hours ago, Jeremie Boop said:

That's a bit dependent on the number of players in each group and how busy the course is. If you are a foursome behind a twosome it may not be possible to keep up with them if the course is pretty open in front of that twosome. Not keeping up the the twosome in that case does not mean that you aren't playing at a good pace. However, on a busy course where there are no gaps then absolutely the best way to know that you are in position is by your groups position in regards to that of the one in front of you.

My point was that just because you don't see a group behind you doesn't mean that you are keeping pace, it only means that they aren't as fast as you are.  Or that they there was no group following you for a couple of tee times.  

The comment I quoted said that they were playing in a tournament, so my cautionary statement was valid.  There was no way that they could gauge their pace by looking for the next group behind them.  Their only concern should have been in keeping pace with the group in front of them. 

[DaveP043]

17 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

The comment I quoted said that they were playing in a tournament, so my cautionary statement was valid.  There was no way that they could gauge their pace by looking for the next group behind them.  Their only concern should have been in keeping pace with the group in front of them. 

A way to phrase this is:

Your place on the golf course is behind the group in front of you, NOT in front of the group behind you.