Taking good balls from range buckets

[Mr. Desmond]

I think it has to say "Range Ball" because that is the property they paid for and therefore own.

If I have hit 10 balls accidentally into the driving range and see a ball that could be mine, but I can't prove it, is that stealing too??  Or does the driving range now own the ball in your eyes?

You are looking for a loophole ... watch it or you may find yourself on the wrong side of ethical quandries.

You have the ability  to recognize the difference between right and wrong and make a choice.

It's another thing to delude yourself.

[pumaAttack]

I don't care about morally convincing you of anything. I disagree with your morals if you believe stealing is justified because you're taking it from a business that's making money off of something they didn't purchase. Would you take a cupcake from a school fundraiser just because the school didn't pay for it?

Legally, it is theft. The range acquired ownership when the true owner lost or abandoned their ball.

As I mentioned, the true owner can come back at any time and reclaim ownership over their ball.

You don't want to see it as stealing from the range, fine. You're stealing from somebody else, not to mention making it harder for the true owner to come back and get his/her ball back because you've now relocated it (probably off the property).

At no time in this entire scenario are you entitled to the ball. You are NEVER the owner of the ball, whether you believe the driving range owns it or not.

I don't view it as stealing.  The ball is abandoned, and therefore I am taking possession of it.  I don't feel that driving range automatically gets to lay claim to it.  And your cupcake story is nowhere related.  The cupcake was donated with the sole purpose of raising money for the school.  The golf ball was accidentally lost, not donated to the range.

You are acting like I walk into the pro shop, grab a ball off the rack and think it's ok to take.

If they can claim a ball as abandoned, why can't I?

[pumaAttack]

You are looking for a loophole ... watch it or you may find yourself on the wrong side of ethical quandries.

You have the ability  to recognize the difference between right and wrong and make a choice.

It's another thing to delude yourself.

What loophole?

Explain how the abandoned ball is theirs automatically?

They didn't hand pick it, stamp a range mark on it and then place it into the range bin.  A ball picker happened to roll over it and it got thrown into the ball washer.  There was no "I claim this as my ball!" remark to be had.

[billchao]

I don't view it as stealing.  The ball is abandoned, and therefore I am taking possession of it.  I don't feel that driving range automatically gets to lay claim to it.

Why do you think have a greater claim over the abandoned ball than the driving range, who not only retrieved it first, but brought it back from the range into your bucket to be found by you to begin with? The range possessed it before you, for longer than you, and it was found on their property. They have a far stronger claim to ownership than you do.

And your cupcake story is nowhere related.  The cupcake was donated with the sole purpose of raising money for the school.  The golf ball was accidentally lost, not donated to the range.

It wasn't a great analogy, but it served its purpose.

You are acting like I walk into the pro shop, grab a ball off the rack and think it's ok to take.

Straw man.

If they can claim a ball as abandoned, why can't I?

Because the range did not abandon it and you did not find it where it was abandoned, therefore you did not find an abandoned golf ball.

Look, I'm done with this. You want to keep rationalizing stealing, that's fine. It's still stealing.

Also, this:

[pumaAttack]

Why do you think have a greater claim over the abandoned ball than the driving range, who not only retrieved it first, but brought it back from the range into your bucket to be found by you to begin with? The range possessed it before you, for longer than you, and it was found on their property. They have a far stronger claim to ownership than you do.

It wasn't a great analogy, but it served its purpose.

Straw man.

Because the range did not abandon it and you did not find it where it was abandoned, therefore you did not find an abandoned golf ball.

Look, I'm done with this. You want to keep rationalizing stealing, that's fine. It's still stealing.

Also, this:

It is your opinion that is it stealing, that does not make it the truth.  Don't act like you are the sole authority on this because you are not.   Until you show me actual legal precedent of this exact case, your opinion is no more correct than mine is.

I am acting like I have a greater claim to it because they never actually even saw the ball.  Their machine randomly found it.  If they did find a brand new ProV1, they would have placed it into their pro shop lost ball section, and not into the range bucket...  Come on man be serious.  They range attendant didn't find anything and claim it, surely you are not that dense.

Also, I have been a member of this forum for longer than you have, maybe you need to read that tread?

[Mr. Desmond]

What loophole?

Explain how the abandoned ball is theirs automatically?

They didn't hand pick it, stamp a range mark on it and then place it into the range bin.  A ball picker happened to roll over it and it got thrown into the ball washer.  There was no "I claim this as my ball!" remark to be had.

You are deluding yourself ... let's hope it does not intrude in other areas of your life. You are probably young. Maybe your eyes will open.

Good luck.

[pumaAttack]

You are deluding yourself ... let's hope it does not intrude in other areas of your life. You are probably young. Maybe your eyes will open.

Good luck.

That is your legal response?

Ha, show me actual precedent that proves your side.    I would love to see a legal case for this that proves it is theft.  In the absence of that proof, you are just stating your opinion like I am which does not make you more correct than I am.

[tefunk]

Puma - go find the legal definition of theft in any state (it will typically be pretty broad in context). It is theft, although petty in nature, in any state. I challenge you to prove me wrong. The only possible argument one could have, which you and others appear to be arguing, is the ownership of the ball when taken. However, the burden of proof would be on the taker to prove the ball was not owned by the range. So, to all of you who want to argue the above point of ownership... The burden is on you. I.e. Prove it

[Hardspoon]

@pumaAttack - I'm genuinely curious what you think of my "house" bowling ball analogy.  Do you think it's the same thing?  Would you also not consider that stealing?

http://thesandtrap.com/t/84262/taking-good-balls-from-range-buckets/342#post_1197149

(hope it's not bad form to link to my own post - it seemed weirder to quote myself)

I'm really just asking, not trying to argue.

[pumaAttack]

Puma - go find the legal definition of theft in any state (it will typically be pretty broad in context).

It is theft, although petty in nature, in any state. I challenge you to prove me wrong.

The only possible argument one could have, which you are arguing, is the ownership of the ball when taken. However, the burden of proof would be on the taker to prove the ball was not owned by the range.

So, to all of you who want to argue the above point of ownership... The burden is on you. I.e. Prove it

It is pretty clear proof that they don't own it because of their "Lost Ball" bins.  If they actually saw it and claimed it, they ProV1 would be there.

They never he saw the ball, how can they claim it.  I have it in my hand, they never touched it.

[tefunk]

It is pretty clear proof that they don't own it because of their "Lost Ball" bins.  If they actually saw it and claimed it, they ProV1 would be there.   They never he saw the ball, how can they claim it.  I have it in my hand, they never touched it.

However, it is not. Prove it.

[pumaAttack]

@pumaAttack - I'm genuinely curious what you think of my "house" bowling ball analogy.  Do you think it's the same thing?  Would you also not consider that stealing?

http://thesandtrap.com/t/84262/taking-good-balls-from-range-buckets/342#post_1197149

(hope it's not bad form to link to my own post - it seemed weirder to quote myself)

I'm really just asking, not trying to argue.

Apples and oranges.

You purchased a locker from the alley.  Paid them for a service.  You then abandoned said payment and therefore said object.  The alley then had to remove said object to free up space for another paying customer to use their service.  They simply made use of a product that truly was left behind.

The golfer never paid to keep his golf ball on the driving range.   It was accidentally lost there and a machine randomly placed it into a bucket.

[pumaAttack]

However, it is not. Prove it.

You need to be more explicit with your responses.

[Ernest Jones]

To all of you who have voted "Take it without Hesitation", I would query you this: if the range buckets were full to the ever lovin' brim with shiny, bright, new ProVs...would ya snipe a few? C'mon, there's thousand of them, brightly, shiny, beautiful ProVs. We're talking a scenario where it's a pretty sure bet that the range paid for all those balls. But...there's a sea of them, buckets and buckets of brightly, shiny, new Tour balls. Who's gonna know the difference?? Grab a few. Do ya do it? Even just once? Be honest, do/would ya? I'll reveal my answer later. ADD* I also find it interesting how many just blithely refute the expertise of @Duff McGee and @Mr. Desmond who have given informed legal opinions on the question (albeit off the cuff) and I'm quite sure either one of them could provide ample jurisprudence if it was worth their time, which I gather it's not. Again, who cares, it's just a freakin' range ball. But why not just admit that you are in fact stealing absent any expressed (or arguably even implied?) consent from the range. You probably won't go to Hell or anything, but you do lose this argument. Sorry. :-P

[pumaAttack]

To all of you who have voted "Take it without Hesitation", I would query you this: if the range buckets were full to the ever lovin' brim with shiny, bright, new ProVs...would ya snipe a few? C'mon, there's thousand of them, brightly, shiny, beautiful ProVs. Who's gonna know the difference?? Grab a few.

Do ya do it? Even just once? Be honest, do/would ya?

I'll reveal my answer later.

If the entire range bucket was full of them?  No.  I would assume those were the range balls at the course.  I have played at courses that use normal Titleists as their driving range balls...

I wouldn't steal a product that the range paid for and truly owned.

[RFKFREAK]

Puma - go find the legal definition of theft in any state (it will typically be pretty broad in context). It is theft, although petty in nature, in any state. I challenge you to prove me wrong. The only possible argument one could have, which you and others appear to be arguing, is the ownership of the ball when taken. However, the burden of proof would be on the taker to prove the ball was not owned by the range. So, to all of you who want to argue the above point of ownership... The burden is on you. I.e. Prove it

I'm genuinely curious but if someone were being charged criminally for theft of one golf ball, wouldn't the burden of proof be on the prosecution to prove the theft for the person to be guilty and would part of that be the prosecution having to establish ownership?

[tefunk]

You need to be more explicit with your responses.

And you will need to use your brain for this one, and throw out all of your made-up scenarios. Prove to me/us it is not theft.

[tefunk]

I'm genuinely curious but if someone were being charged criminally for theft of one golf ball, wouldn't the burden of proof be on the prosecution to prove the theft for the person to be guilty and would part of that be the prosecution having to establish ownership?

If the ball was taken out of the range basket, the prosecution already established proof. The burden "ball" would be back in the defendants court