Gun Laws

[Dave2512]

So @iacas locks 2 other gun threads asking folks to take a break and get back to discussing golf and someone bumps one. Way to go.

[possumkiwi]

2 hours ago, dchoye said:

i think it healthy to have some debate on gun ownership and gun laws and really don't need to lock gun threads up when discussion gets heated.

So what if we disagree?

Why do we must we be redirected to golf topics ?

Isn't that what the Grill Room was for?

I'm with this guy.  It's even worse when a pro-gun moderator makes the call to shut it down.  You Americans love to shout about your democracy and freedoms and so on, which is all fine, until someone disagrees with the guys who make the rules.

For the record, and to paraphrase Jim Jeffries, legislation has to pander to the lowest common denominator.  Think of speed limits.  "I'm a good driver.  A responsible driver.  I've taken car control courses and I drive the latest vehicle which I have safety checked all the time.  I should be allowed to drive as fast as I want to."

But you can't, because no matter how good you think you are, there are thousands, millions of people who aren't, and so the limit has to be set to cater for them.

[newtogolf]

4 minutes ago, possumkiwi said:

I'm with this guy.  It's even worse when a pro-gun moderator makes the call to shut it down.  You Americans love to shout about your democracy and freedoms and so on, which is all fine, until someone disagrees with the guys who make the rules.

For the record, and to paraphrase Jim Jeffries, legislation has to pander to the lowest common denominator.  Think of speed limits.  "I'm a good driver.  A responsible driver.  I've taken car control courses and I drive the latest vehicle which I have safety checked all the time.  I should be allowed to drive as fast as I want to."

But you can't, because no matter how good you think you are, there are thousands, millions of people who aren't, and so the limit has to be set to cater for them.

It's a golf forum, not a political debate forum.  While Erik and the moderators allow a lot of latitude in the topics discussed it's important to the site and membership that the focus remains golf.

We are all passionate about these other (non-golf) issues but at some points (like today) it overtakes the other discussions and in some cases creates hard feelings between the participants.  I'm a member of other golf forums that won't even allow such topics to be discussed so be careful when you make blanket statements about the moderators and site owners here.

[possumkiwi]

22 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

It's a golf forum, not a political debate forum.  While Erik and the moderators allow a lot of latitude in the topics discussed it's important to the site and membership that the focus remains golf.

We are all passionate about these other (non-golf) issues but at some points (like today) it overtakes the other discussions and in some cases creates hard feelings between the participants.  I'm a member of other golf forums that won't even allow such topics to be discussed so be careful when you make blanket statements about the moderators and site owners here.

For goodness' sake.  If you lot want to have a golf forum, remove the grill room, remove all the other non-golf bits, and stop pretending you're open to other stuff being discussed.

The "important to the membership" sounds exactly like the dinosaurs at my and many other clubs.  Looking after their own, invariably conservative interests in the name of "the membership".  Guess what - the people here who disagree with you and the moderators - we're as much "the membership" as anyone else.

The Grill Room

Follow this 0

If you've got something off-topic (like politics, religion, or other non-golf, non-sport, non-geek topics), discuss it here.

---

Grill Room Rules

No hats or jeans allowed.

Just kidding. Please keep things courteous and civil. Though discussions can become heated, it is incumbent upon everyone to act like an adult who respects others.

[Golfingdad]

9 minutes ago, possumkiwi said:

For goodness' sake.  If you lot want to have a golf forum, remove the grill room, remove all the other non-golf bits, and stop pretending you're open to other stuff being discussed.

The "important to the membership" sounds exactly like the dinosaurs at my and many other clubs.  Looking after their own, invariably conservative interests in the name of "the membership".  Guess what - the people here who disagree with you and the moderators - we're as much "the membership" as anyone else.

The Grill Room

Follow this 0

If you've got something off-topic (like politics, religion, or other non-golf, non-sport, non-geek topics), discuss it here.

---

Grill Room Rules

No hats or jeans allowed.

Just kidding. Please keep things courteous and civil. Though discussions can become heated, it is incumbent upon everyone to act like an adult who respects others.

And you'll notice that all of your complaints are being levied in a thread about guns in the Grill Room and nobody is stopping you.

So .... what is your complaint?

Edited to add that if you go back and look at this thread and the several that preceeded it, you'll find ALL of the same arguments by many of the same people (myself included) on both sides of this debate.  It gets old real quick.

[Pretzel]

7 minutes ago, possumkiwi said:

For goodness' sake.  If you lot want to have a golf forum, remove the grill room, remove all the other non-golf bits, and stop pretending you're open to other stuff being discussed.

It is, first and foremost, a golf forum. That means that you should get out there and discuss golf more than you discuss politics. The grill room is merely a courtesy if someone comes across an additional topic they want to casually discuss. This is not the place to have large and heated debates, because it is not a political forum.

The moderators here want to read and moderate golf conversation, not worry about reading pages upon pages of non-golf conversation to ensure the whole forum is properly moderated. It's an issue of workload, since moderators can't dedicate their time to ensure quality golf content if they're busy with nearly 20 pages of political debate.

[dkolo]

49 minutes ago, possumkiwi said:

I'm with this guy.  It's even worse when a pro-gun moderator makes the call to shut it down.  You Americans love to shout about your democracy and freedoms and so on, which is all fine, until someone disagrees with the guys who make the rules.

For the record, and to paraphrase Jim Jeffries, legislation has to pander to the lowest common denominator.  Think of speed limits.  "I'm a good driver.  A responsible driver.  I've taken car control courses and I drive the latest vehicle which I have safety checked all the time.  I should be allowed to drive as fast as I want to."

But you can't, because no matter how good you think you are, there are thousands, millions of people who aren't, and so the limit has to be set to cater for them.

Oh yes, please teach us more about how democracy and freedoms apply to how a private business like this one chooses to operate. 

[RFKFREAK]

7 minutes ago, dkolo said:

Oh yes, please teach us more about how democracy and freedoms apply to how a private business like this one chooses to operate. 

A private business that none of us are required to participate in.

[possumkiwi]

27 minutes ago, Pretzel said:

It is, first and foremost, a golf forum. That means that you should get out there and discuss golf more than you discuss politics. The grill room is merely a courtesy if someone comes across an additional topic they want to casually discuss. This is not the place to have large and heated debates, because it is not a political forum.

The moderators here want to read and moderate golf conversation, not worry about reading pages upon pages of non-golf conversation to ensure the whole forum is properly moderated. It's an issue of workload, since moderators can't dedicate their time to ensure quality golf content if they're busy with nearly 20 pages of political debate.

There are threads about film and TV, music, spelling and grammar errors, all of which run way over 50 pages.  They're obviously worthy of the moderators' time, but 18 pages of discussion about gun laws after two mass shootings in a week (in which I've made...three posts...are detrimental to "quality golf content".

- This is a golf forum with an area specifically described as being for politics, off-topic subjects etc, but you're only supposed to have "casual" discussions, whatever that means, and stick to golf at all times.

- Moderators can and will shut down topics they don't agree with, but are happy to let other non-golf threads run to 80 pages

- If you're a new member, you can't have discussions about stuff we've covered in the past, because the more established members are tired of it

If that's the way it is, you can keep it.  Enjoy your lives.

[Osnola]

Just enforce the current laws in effect.  You will never be able to keep guns out of bad guy's hands.  Remember...You cannot implement true socialism and redistribute wealth on a grand style while the people retain the ability to protect their property from arbitrary confiscation.  As Saul Alinsky once said, "the issue is never the issue, the issue is always the revolution."  The issue is not gun control, the issue is socialism and gun control...

So everybody needs to get their heads out of their arses and understand this before it is to late...They are pushing extremely hard to force Socialism on us...Just wait, another EO will be issued before lone to push gun control...

Edited December 3, 2015 by Osnola

[newtogolf]

23 minutes ago, possumkiwi said:

There are threads about film and TV, music, spelling and grammar errors, all of which run way over 50 pages.  They're obviously worthy of the moderators' time, but 18 pages of discussion about gun laws after two mass shootings in a week (in which I've made...three posts...are detrimental to "quality golf content".

- This is a golf forum with an area specifically described as being for politics, off-topic subjects etc, but you're only supposed to have "casual" discussions, whatever that means, and stick to golf at all times.

- Moderators can and will shut down topics they don't agree with, but are happy to let other non-golf threads run to 80 pages

- If you're a new member, you can't have discussions about stuff we've covered in the past, because the more established members are tired of it

If that's the way it is, you can keep it.  Enjoy your lives.

Rather than whining, why don't you post what you want to post here.  This thread is still open and you obviously have a need to share what's on your mind. 

[CoachB25]

I've already made my opinions known and so, I'll save you the trouble of hating me for my opinion.  Instead, I'd like to point out that most of us share a love of the game of golf.  It is something that I find transcends so many differences.  We call all relate to that quest for the elusive birdie and the rare Eagle and some just may get that Albatross.  I've been a moderator of several sites and for over a decade on a couple.  It isn't easy and, to be honest, you just can't please everyone.  One thing that is so hard to do is preserve the climate of a site.  Yes, the topics here in the Grill Forum are intended to stretch or represent different interests of membership.  Still, it can get personal and so, I do understand why a Moderator steps in.  Been there and done that and no matter what, Moderators just can't win.  JMHO!

[LagShaft]

18 minutes ago, Osnola said:

Just enforce the current laws in effect.  You will never be able to keep guns out of bad guy's hands.  Remember...You cannot implement true socialism and redistribute wealth on a grand style while the people retain the ability to protect their property from arbitrary confiscation.  As Saul Alinsky once said, "the issue is never the issue, the issue is always the revolution."  The issue is not gun control, the issue is socialism and gun control...

So everybody needs to get their heads out of their arses and understand this before it is to late...They are pushing extremely hard to force Socialism on us...Just wait, another EO will be issued before lone to push gun control...

I disagree if the govt wants our guns and wants to implement all of the conspiracy theory bs on us they can.  It would get a little ugly but most would just turn them over and hope for the best.  I see gun ownership in the sense that I have a responsibility to protect myself and my family and if possible those around me.   For those who are against guns or have never fired one I think you should quit saying ewe Ick, go to a range and pop off a few rounds you might like it and you obviously value life so you are the exact person that I would want packing around me as opposed to the spaghetti western types that often speak for conceal and carry.  If you can't bring yourself to do that at least buy a good taser and carry that.  I have frequented gun forums in the past and I read the FB posts about how in the event of a homeland war there would be a sniper on every roof but every time there is a mass shooting all you hear about are people hiding under their desks and calling their loved ones to say good bye.  Man up and take some responsibility for your own well being America quit relying on the police force that you have been attacking at every turn recently.  Like it or not we are at war,  the enemy is bringing it home to us and the police can't protect in every situation. OK Rant over And if I haven't offended every one yet I'd like to say that I agree with the mods and that they have a responsibility to make sure that this site doesn't become slanted away from its purpose.  Just My Opinion:)

[Pretzel]

1 hour ago, possumkiwi said:

- This is a golf forum with an area specifically described as being for politics, off-topic subjects etc, but you're only supposed to have "casual" discussions, whatever that means, and stick to golf at all times.

You're not only supposed to have "casual" discussions. It's just the highly controversial issues can be a hassle due to the frequency in which they are posted in. You have to remember that the front page of the website shows recent activity, and it looks bad for all the recent activity on a golf forum to be in a thread about gun laws.

1 hour ago, possumkiwi said:

- Moderators can and will shut down topics they don't agree with, but are happy to let other non-golf threads run to 80 pages

It's not that they don't agree with the thread, it's just that there becomes a point at which a thread has run its course and neither side will make any headway. At that point any further commentary in the thread is useless chatter when you consider the fact that the primary purpose of the forum is to discuss golf. I would encourage you to start a golf discussion on a politics forum and see how fast the moderators shut down a topic that they "don't agree with".

1 hour ago, possumkiwi said:

- If you're a new member, you can't have discussions about stuff we've covered in the past, because the more established members are tired of it

I'm not sure where you're getting this from. The problem occurs when members begin to rehash things over and over again. It honestly gets rather tiresome to see the same arguments rephrased in more and more inflammatory terms as a dead-end thread progresses. 

Anyways, I'm done responding to your off-topic commentary. Keep in mind I am not a moderator, merely a member of the forum. I feel your viewpoint is flawed about the moderation, especially because you still have this thread to discuss gun laws. I would recommend that should you post further in this thread, it be related to the topic of the thread.

[boogielicious]

1 hour ago, possumkiwi said:

There are threads about film and TV, music, spelling and grammar errors, all of which run way over 50 pages.  They're obviously worthy of the moderators' time, but 18 pages of discussion about gun laws after two mass shootings in a week (in which I've made...three posts...are detrimental to "quality golf content".

- This is a golf forum with an area specifically described as being for politics, off-topic subjects etc, but you're only supposed to have "casual" discussions, whatever that means, and stick to golf at all times.

- Moderators can and will shut down topics they don't agree with, but are happy to let other non-golf threads run to 80 pages

- If you're a new member, you can't have discussions about stuff we've covered in the past, because the more established members are tired of it

If that's the way it is, you can keep it.  Enjoy your lives.

Threads don't get shut down because posters disagree. Threads get shut down when posters let their emotions take over and start insulting each other, calling each other names, refusing to actually read what others post and repeating the same mantra. We can discuss anything, but when posters start getting personal, we may lock the thread. This even happens in threads about golf.

FWIW, I don't agree with other mods and site owners on some things, including gun control. BUT, I have respect for people's opinions in a very complex subject. Keep this in mind when you post and understand why we lock some threads.

[Gator Hazard]

1 hour ago, Pretzel said:

 

Anyways, I'm done responding to your off-topic commentary. Keep in mind I am not a moderator, merely a member of the forum. I feel your viewpoint is flawed about the moderation, especially because you still have this thread to discuss gun laws. I would recommend that should you post further in this thread, it be related to the topic of the thread.

+1 on this.  TST moderators do a great job running this forum and I know from personal experience that they will reach out and engage and do things to help diffuse situations rather than take extreme measures.  The whole idea is to be respectful and courteous, as we would when we are playing golf on a course, and to not take opposing points of view personally and resort to degrading people.

The beauty of this forum is that if you do not like it, you can always leave.  Or you can take a break and come back and it will still be here. 

[JonMA1]

3 hours ago, RFKFREAK said:

A private business that none of us are required to participate in.

Yeah, it's not like anyone's sticking a gun to our heads and forcing us to log in (sorry, that was bad even by my standards).

Seriously, did anyone budge on their beliefs because of those threads? A few people on each side of the issue were being civil, but most of us were just repeating the same rhetoric, spewing out statistics and countering those with opposing statistics. If we had all been in the same room together, it would have turned into a yelling match 5 minutes into the discussion, the kind where people confuse volume with intelligence.

It's not the first time a thread has been locked. The others had run their course as well, and in at least one instance, was shut down by an administrator who never posted in it (http://thesandtrap.com/forums/topic/84478-religion-vs-atheism-thread/?page=12). Sometimes its just time.

No one wants to see you quit the forum @possumkiwi, but I think you're wrong about why the thread was locked.

On a positive note, those of you who disagreed with shutting down the thread got the rest of us to finally agree on something.

[imsys0042]

I took a break from the forums after one of the other threads.   I don't think it's the right thing to do, but when the rhetoric or talking points get out of hand, you carry bad feelings into other threads.    There are very few topics I get angry about.   Mostly, racial and gay rights issues and guns.   Differing religions don't bother me (Jesus can handle what anyone says about him) ; and most politics don't bother me unless people just launch uninformed broadsides at the other side and go after people.

This forum is better than most, but I think locking the threads was a good idea.  It does help to say your point of view on a topic that is important to you, even if you are not going to change your mind, nor the minds of others.   But even though this is the "inter webs", things can go too far.

I hate guns personally.   I don't ever want to handle one and I think that many of the cases that people cite are wrong.   However it's disrespectful to the responsible gun owners to whine over them incessantly and label people as gun nuts.  It's also dis-respectful to the hunters, people who feel the need to have small arms for protection or the highly trained people with weapons who carry not for their work.   Perhaps I don't agree with so many guns being around, but I always agree with people acting in a responsible manner.

I don't think that anyone should leave this forum over these discussions, but remember what you write will alter peoples' opinions of you.  Positive or negative.