Shoulder Turn

[saevel25]

when you say you set your hands early , it seems to me as though you are "manipulating" your natural swing.

Depends on what he is doing. Feeling like you do something doesn't mean it happens or to the degree in which you feel it happen. He could be setting the club early, but when all things considered he might have it moving how he wants it. Hinging early, late or in between is very individual to the golfer. 

Also, "natural" swing for most golfers is not beneficial. If I kept my natural swing from when I started golf I wouldn't be the single digit handicapper I am. I've changed a lot in my swing over the past couple years for the better. It's making those changes feel natural. 

first of all you, turn your grip (left hand) to a tad stronger position on the shaft (over the shaft), and treat your right hand as almost non existent- almost feather light with just thumb and forefinger in contact.

Grip pressure is going to be in the last three fingers of your left hand and the first two fingers of your right hand. Not a big fan of the light grip pressure feeling. 

then all you do as you start the backswing is to think you are just about to hammer or chop something with your club from the side with the left hand in total control, no conscious right hand input at all.

This is a feel. It may or may not work for someone. I for one do not feel my left side in the golf swing. I am right side dominant. I don't feel my hands in the golf swing much either. 

also, it has the added benefit, once mastered, of giving you "options' of curving the ball left or right at will, just by using your hands .this skill will come later as a natural progression with practice..

 

Not a big fan of this method. Twisting the hands or trying to delay twist is not a good method of curving the ball. Also majority of PGA tour players play one shape. Curving the ball is highly overrated. Why make golf harder by trying to shape a shot when it's not required. 

[adam3553]

I too have struggled with my shoulder turn. I am now using the checkpoint of my shoulders being at 90* when my left arm is parallel with the ground. This checkpoint also helps me shorten my swing. Ive also struggled with a flat shoulder turn. I have trouble keeping my arms in front of my chest and being steeper with my shoulders in the backswing seems to help this. Ive heard some instructors say to feel like you turn your left shoulder down to your right foot but that seems to make my head move off the ball. I also know a good checkpoint at the top of the swing is to have the shoulders point 3ft or so in front of the ball. My question is whats a good feel to make a steep shoulder turn without moving off the ball. Its hard to tell whats too steep or not steep enough.

[mvmac]

I too have struggled with my shoulder turn. I am now using the checkpoint of my shoulders being at 90* when my left arm is parallel with the ground. This checkpoint also helps me shorten my swing. Ive also struggled with a flat shoulder turn. I have trouble keeping my arms in front of my chest and being steeper with my shoulders in the backswing seems to help this. Ive heard some instructors say to feel like you turn your left shoulder down to your right foot but that seems to make my head move off the ball. I also know a good checkpoint at the top of the swing is to have the shoulders point 3ft or so in front of the ball. My question is whats a good feel to make a steep shoulder turn without moving off the ball. Its hard to tell whats too steep or not steep enough.

Take a look at these videos. For the ones with the stick, do the drill and note how it feels, then use that feel when you practice.

 

 

 

I also know a good checkpoint at the top of the swing is to have the shoulders point 3ft or so in front of the ball. 

Another way to define a proper pivot, torso (shoulders/hips) turn about 90 degrees to the address inclination.

 

[adam3553]

Thanks for the videos. I have an old driver shaft and will try that out tomm during practice.

Edited October 24, 2015 by adam3553

[mythbuster]

mvmac- i sort of discovered something today that was a bit of an eye opener, and it relates to a lot of the discussion in this  thread.

i may have been totally wrong in my thinking about the grip, setup and shoulder turn. in fact, i am certain now that i was actually, totally wrong, so my apologies to everyone.

ok, my original problem was a flat or constricted, stiff shoulder turn, so i decided to offset this with grip pressures and related ill fated , limited success manoeuvres in setup.

anyway, what i found out was that my right hand was not set under the shaft enough at address.

what i mean by that is, the shoulders at address form a totally different plane/angle  if the right hand is under the shaft somewhat . in my case, it initially felt very "strange", as i was always on top of the shaft, but the consequential outcome was absolutely amazing with a very improved shoulder turn .

it is very early days yet and needs tinkering around the edges, but for me this is a huge breakthrough .

 

 

 

 

 

[Dave325]

I find it easier to shoulder turn if I preset my wrists very early in the backswing, I have been trying not to do this for a wider slower backswing, but is there anything "wrong" with early wrist hinging?

I started doing this mainly because my swing coach mentioned the tension in my right shoulder needs to relax. So, rather than the standard one piece takeaway, I do two things.... start with the wrist hinge and moving the right shoulder blade to the left as in pinching a ball between the blades. This seems to take the tension away from my shoulders and arms (my problem areas) as well as set the proper position along the sweet spot path during the takeaway. When I would do the one piece takeaway... moving the arms would cause the tension in my shoulders for some reson (shrug).

Of course, different things work for different people as each person has to feel something differently for themselves... as long as you maintain the five keys while doing it. 

Regards,

Dave

[Vinsk]

when you say you set your hands early , it seems to me as though you are "manipulating" your natural swing.

probably the best way to get an early wrist set naturally, which does not make your swing feel artificial, is a twofold method.

first of all you, turn your grip (left hand) to a tad stronger position on the shaft (over the shaft), and treat your right hand as almost non existent- almost feather light with just thumb and forefinger in contact.

then all you do as you start the backswing is to think you are just about to hammer or chop something with your club from the side with the left hand in total control, no conscious right hand input at all.

that will give you more coordination and sync.and a huge unforced, natural shoulder turn.

also, it has the added benefit, once mastered, of giving you "options' of curving the ball left or right at will, just by using your hands .this skill will come later as a natural progression with practice.

you see, the problem with modern day golf teaching is that we are encouraged to try to emulate the characteristics of what we see the so called greats doing at setup and in swinging a club, and we then end up missing the whole point . that is why the typical amateur swings look so "robotic".

That is exactly what most people are required to do as their "natural swing" simply is a disaster. My natural swing that I can repeat without any thoughts or deliberate effort is a perfectly executed shank. Golf is hard. 

Edited October 27, 2015 by mvmac
Quotiing and text

[mythbuster]

With shanking- it can only be one thing 95 % of the time. it means your left scapula is coming forward during the swing. An easy fix is to allow the shoulder blades to come forward at address.

[iacas]

4 hours ago, mythbuster said:

With shanking- it can only be one thing 95 % of the time. it means your left scapula is coming forward during the swing. An easy fix is to allow the shoulder blades to come forward at address.

I find that there can be plenty of other causes, and so, I disagree with you.

If you're going to say there's one cause of a shank it had better be something like:

• The hosel hits the ball - or -
• The ball hits far too close to the heel.

People with bad balance that re-adjust during the swing can shank the ball. People who swing across the ball (to the left) can actually retract their left shoulder, and if they fail to do so fast enough, can shank the ball.

There are a lot of causes for shanks.

[mvmac]

7 hours ago, mythbuster said:

With shanking- it can only be one thing 95 % of the time.

Can you please stop saying stuff like this as if it's a fact? It's getting old and it doesn't come off the way you think it does.

[adam3553]

After doing the above drill from mvmac with the alignment stick and driver shaft I have found a thought or feel Id like to run by you guys. Basically Im feeling as if the distance between my left shoulder and chin stays constant throughout the backswing. During mirror work this has shortened my swing considerably and has put me into a better position at the top. Im pretty flexible as is and this flat shoulder turn plauge has hurt my game for far too long. Hopefully Im on the right track here. It looks so much better. Ill have to post a couple photos of the before and after. Im still getting my hands plenty deep enough also. Any thoughts on this feel/ thought.

[mvmac]

1 hour ago, adam3553 said:

After doing the above drill from mvmac with the alignment stick and driver shaft I have found a thought or feel Id like to run by you guys. Basically Im feeling as if the distance between my left shoulder and chin stays constant throughout the backswing. During mirror work this has shortened my swing considerably and has put me into a better position at the top. Im pretty flexible as is and this flat shoulder turn plauge has hurt my game for far too long. Hopefully Im on the right track here. It looks so much better. Ill have to post a couple photos of the before and after. Im still getting my hands plenty deep enough also. Any thoughts on this feel/ thought.

So if you turn flat the gap between the left shoulder and chin would narrow? Keeping the distance the same helps you move it down longer?

Haven't heard that one before, nice job figuring out a feel that works for you.

[adam3553]

7 hours ago, mvmac said:

So if you turn flat the gap between the left shoulder and chin would narrow? Keeping the distance the same helps you move it down longer?

Haven't heard that one before, nice job figuring out a feel that works for you.

Thanks. Yea it helps me move the left shoulder down. My left shoulder still gets close to my chin but it doesnt feel like it does.

[JKolya]

As others have said, sequence does matter overall. But it seems that your question was does it matter that your shoulders are not there at a3, but somehow they catch up and are fully turned by a4?  Hard to tell without video, but even in those pics it looks like your shoulders are still a tad bit behind. Perhaps you start a little armsy? Not necessarily a bad thing if that is the feel you need. There are drills you can do to work on the backswing, but it may not be your priority piece. Submit a video and you will get feedback on a priority piece and the question you have.

[mythbuster]

ok, i had shanking issues in the past and i actually found that my shoulder joints were the culprit and were  allowed to 'collapse' a tad forward involuntarily during the backswing, which caused the hosel of the club to come in to play with devasting consequences. 

that said,  forced address collapse did not cure this problem totally for me , but was still a resultant huge improvement anyway.

what i found out just recently to totally fix these issues was something that came to me from left of field analysis .

i think that a possible x%(0-100)  of golfers are just trying to copy  videos of so called  great swings, but have no idea how to manifest these gyrations into their own golfing world.

my own take on this is simple and it involves the takeaway and what you think of as a "chop".

you can chop up and down or back and forward with your wrists. most golfers think that a chop is up and down motion with the wrists.

you should start the backswing with a chop of the wrists in a backward hinge motion. provided that the wrists are set, facing each other on the grip, so they can collapse in unison during the backswing.

that will allow your shoulders to turn naturally and that is all what golf is in essence- just a natural game that has been so  "screwed" for money  that the real past masters of the game must be turning in their graves.

[Abu3baid]

2 hours ago, mythbuster said:

that will allow your shoulders to turn naturally and that is all what golf is in essence- just a natural game that has been so  "screwed" for money  that the real past masters of the game must be turning in their graves.

I would love to know what you mean by the game getting screwed for money?  And what this has to do with the shoulder turn?

[iacas]

6 hours ago, mythbuster said:

ok, i had shanking issues in the past and i actually found that my shoulder joints were the culprit and were  allowed to 'collapse' a tad forward involuntarily during the backswing, which caused the hosel of the club to come in to play with devasting consequences.

Have you read this thread?

It's unlikely your "bad" swing was very different at all from your "good" swing. Enough to cause shanks one day? Sure. That's possible.

You seem to keep chasing quick fixes. You seem to go from one little "fix" to the next.

6 hours ago, mythbuster said:

you can chop up and down or back and forward with your wrists. most golfers think that a chop is up and down motion with the wrists.

you should start the backswing with a chop of the wrists in a backward hinge motion. provided that the wrists are set, facing each other on the grip, so they can collapse in unison during the backswing.

Those are your feels, and while they're no doubt very "real" to you, they won't work for others who don't need to feel that, or who would feel it differently.

6 hours ago, mythbuster said:

that will allow your shoulders to turn naturally and that is all what golf is in essence- just a natural game that has been so  "screwed" for money  that the real past masters of the game must be turning in their graves.

I'm with @Abu3baid: I have no idea what you're talking about now.

@mythbuster, please stop chasing the quick fix stuff. Post a Member Swing. Unless the background has some beautiful Austrian mountain ranges, you'll get help.

[ghalfaire]

On 10/23/2015, 2:05:43, mythbuster said:

when you say you set your hands early , it seems to me as though you are "manipulating" your natural swing.

I don't disagree with what you say but most swing changes require you manipulate your current (natural?) swing.  Hopefully, if the change works, you will eventually get the move ingrained so you don't think about it and it becomes your natural swing.  In the books I believe it is called Muscle Memory.  Also I would add that what "feel" works for one might not for another and that "feel versus real" can be a factor, bigger for some than other but exists for all of us.  I think your post is correct in that the closer to natural you can stay the better off you are.  But what is natural for one isn't necessarily natural for another.

Sorry about being a little late with the comment but somehow had missed your post earlier.