What Would Jack Nicklaus Shoot if.....

[nevets88]

If the amateur had the same exact body Nicklaus had when the mind transfer was done and you gave Frankenjack some time to practice, now we're talking. 

Thinking about this a little more, there is something special about Nicklaus's myelin/nervous system - the way it works, quantity, whatever, so same body type helps but not as much as I thought. 

[mvmac]

I do not agree with this.  A golfer not breaking 100 has a lot of room for improvement both in the mental game side and the physical side.  Without actually changing swing mechanics but only changing the choices he makes and understanding his misses he can improve more than 5 shots in my opinion.

I think we basically agree, I think "Jack Brain" would make a run at breaking 100.

I don't think it's fair to say that he would still hit a few OB or miss every green.  Maybe this golfer didn't know his big miss is way right and there is plenty of room left to take OB out of play.  Maybe the golfer had been going at every pin or missed 75% of the greens to the right but never realized it.  

That's the thing with this kind of golfer, there is no pattern, there is no "I'll aim 20 yards left and fade it back to the target" because you don't know what shot is coming. Could be a big pull, a slice or a shot he duffs 20 yards.

Thinking about this a little more, there is something special about Nicklaus's myelin/nervous system - the way it works, quantity, whatever, so same body type helps but not as much as I thought. 

Right, the body type isn't the biggest obstacle, it's that he's in the body of a guy that can't hit the ball solid.

[Gator Hazard]

I am struggling with this one.  My thoughts are that the knowledge of the mechanics are stored in the brain.  He knows how a proper grip feels, he knows how to set up and position his body for all shots on the course.  He knows how to take the club away from the ball and how to return it.  He knows how to hinge and unhinge his wrists.  These are all things his brain knows well.  To me I wonder is it like driving a different car?  I know that is an over simplification but still to the point.  I think initially he struggles to get used to his new host body but eventually works it out.  He probably pisses a lot of people off by taking more time doing practice swings because Jack Nicklaus is not going to screw everything up.  Besides, Jack is one of a very few, very elite, mentally tough people, his mind is not so much like others, he will find a way to win.  So whereas mental may not be much of a factor for many, I think for Jack, it may be, he may be mentally tough enough to actually have a far above average impact just through his ultra competitive desire.  Besides Jack's mind is used to dealing with pressure and clutch shots whereas the 100s golfer is not so he doesn't over tense and grip too tightly and yip putts the way the 100 golfer may.

I initially thought he shoots about the same but my revised thought is that initially he shoots in the 80s by taking his time learning his new body.  How much time would he have in this body is also a factor because Jack would take a flubby body and make it game worthy given enough time.

He's like the Chuck Norris of golf.  Jack Nicklaus once walked down a par 5 with a 2 iron and a hard on, there were no survivors.

Edited October 28, 2015 by Gator Hazard

[Patch]

Did some one add to the "lower" vote? I don't remember seeing the "than 80" part. My eyes might be getting new glasses soon.  If so then I would say jack would break 100 pretty easily. maybe even 90.  

[iacas]

@Gator Hazard, it's not really like driving a new car. It's like driving an alien spaceship. And the aliens had five legs and no arms.

Plus the question is asking what he'd shoot the first time, not eventually.

[rkim291968]

I wanted to vote for 1 or 2 stroke save option but it is not there.  Instead, I voted for "the same."   When a golfer is shooting in 105s (like I do once in a while), having a good course management & mental game is not a huge factor.  But I still say it may help with a decision making here that leads to a saved stroke or two but not 5.

Edited October 28, 2015 by rkim291968

[Cookieboy]

I put he  shoots in the 80's

I generally shoot in the 95-105 range.

My last round, I shot 103  I had a collection of pars and single bogeys The score racked up on just a few very bad holes.

One hole I will relay in  detail

Long par 5. Drive middle of fairway

second shot middle of fairway.

3rd shot I plonked into a greenside bunker

4th shot flew the green and went over a steep hill and ended hard against the OB fence. Flag nowhere  in sight

5th shot went about two feet.from the fence

6th shot went over  the hill, over the green and luckily missed the bunker but left a long chip

7th shot landed on the green but a long way from the hole.

Two putts later I had a nine and was lucky to get out that cheaply

 

Jack would never have made some of the mistakes I made

He would still KNOW how to get out of the bunker without blasting it past the green

He would never be so stupid as to chip the ball away from the fence NOT KNOWING where the flag was.

 

Any decent bunker player would have parred that hole given my first three shots. Jack would have, there's four strokes he saved himself on one hole. Jack's golf intelligence would saved him

 

 

 

[Jeremie Boop]

If you even think of it in terms of yourself, if you don't play for awhile and come back you can't play as well. You still have the same "golf knowledge" and whatnot but your body doesn't do what you want it to. Or maybe that's just me. Either way, it only makes sense that this would be even more exaggerated in the example given here.

[pganapathy]

In the 90's at best.  Knocking off more than that would be too hard without improving the skill level.  If on the other hand you give him the time to practice (no job etc.) with his determination, you could get it into the 80's or possibly (slim, but still) even the 70's

[Gator Hazard]

@Gator Hazard, it's not really like driving a new car. It's like driving an alien spaceship. And the aliens had five legs and no arms.

Plus the question is asking what he'd shoot the first time, not eventually.

Well I guess you never saw Will Smith completely own that spaceship in Independence Day after a few minutes of testing it out did you?  :)

I would say it is more in line with going from a Formula 1 race car down to, lets say for the sake of argument a 5 series BMW M class (assuming the 30 year old is in reasonable shape-its still a lot of difference).  The car still has four tires and a steering wheel, it is not that "alien" feeling.  Sure, there is not as many horses, the car is shaped differently but its fundamental characteristics are still in place.  The same is said about the human body.  The 100s golfer is a 100s golfer because he doesn't know what he is doing and feeling is wrong, whereas the GOAT does.  Jack's mind in new body adjusts in a number of swings and even holes and still comes out under 90.  

I didn't see in the question where it is one time but even if it was I would say he breaks 90 purely on knowledge and having seen, been in every situation imaginable with the stress of the golf world watching and the competitors after him.  In this scenario Jack's mind only has to play a lazy Sunday afternoon and even gets cart girls to bring him refreshments.  I don't think it is that far of a stretch to imagine.  Now, does he shoot below 80?  Not on first round but I don't see Jack's mind in an average body shooting more than bogey golf over 18 holes.

If you even think of it in terms of yourself, if you don't play for awhile and come back you can't play as well. You still have the same "golf knowledge" and whatnot but your body doesn't do what you want it to. Or maybe that's just me. Either way, it only makes sense that this would be even more exaggerated in the example given here.

Jack still plays, so now he is given the benefit of a younger and probably at least, slightly stronger body with more flexibility.  So yes, he does stumble a bit, but I think after a few holes he has it basically together and can play some bogey golf in a body that is not old and creaky (sorry to any of our more senior TST members, no offense intended, heck I am youngish and creaky).

[iacas]

Externally, @Gator Hazard, yes the car is the same. Internally no.

Maybe the best example is the bike that steered the opposite way. Switching into a 36 handicapper's body would be kind of like that.

Feel ain't real. A gas pedal is always a gas pedal… but a feel isn't always the same person to person. Not even always day to day.

[natureboy]

Maybe this wasn't clear but the point of the post is to illustrate how relatively unimportant the mental game is to scoring when compared to full swing skills/mechanics. Jack's brain can't "override" all the bad swing habits the golfer has, all he can really do is make better decisions. Lots of great golfers started off playing bogey golf and had to train their bodies to develop good golf swings.

The question basically comes down to: what would Jack shoot if he only hit it 190 off the tee, missed every green, hit a few OB, hit plenty of fat and thin shots.

Sure add the practice caveats after we vote . Your arguments make sense, but I'm not convinced 'the swing' resides entirely in the body. Could someone post a link about the nerve fiber thing? That sounds very interesting.

The physical training for positions and body awareness is huge, but I also think the intentions of how to move the body, the awareness of the correct swing path, knowledge of what club feedback and ball flight means about impact conditions matter on the course - especially adjusting on the fly if the body is 'off'. Someone who hits it 190 off the tee (the first distance you had was like 230) may do so for technique reasons as well as physical (huge banana slice e.g.) that is often the result of a faulty 3-D / 4-D (+timing) mental model of how the body and club should move for best results.

I agree without practice the innate 'bad training' of the new body would interfere hugely with this swing knowledge / awareness, but I do think it could give him a few more shots to get into the 80's. I think the 'feels' of a honed swing arise out of an interaction between the nerves in the body and the 'master program' established in the brain. I'm not sure it's strictly one or the other. Plus expert green reading for putts and short game is worth at least a few strokes.

With time to train the new body that had the original distance you listed better technique knowledge would probably be good for another 20 yards which would put him into scratch distance.

[mvmac]

It's like driving an alien spaceship. And the aliens had five legs and no arms.

Plus the question is asking what he'd shoot the first time, not eventually.

Ha, I like that example.

Your arguments make sense, but I'm not convinced 'the swing' resides entirely in the body. 

Basically all I'm saying is the  "connection" between the mind and the body just wouldn't be there.

 

Also include @Gator Hazard in this response.

It's like if I tried to play golf after not making a swing for 5 years. When I tried to hit a ball I would still "know" how to swing but the body wouldn't cooperate. The body hasn't been "trained" to make a swing in 5 years.

Similar kind of thing with Jack, he'd be transported into a body where his "feels" don't translate and the motor pattern (or whatever you want to call it) is faulty. 

[Gator Hazard]

Ha, I like that example.

Basically all I'm saying is the  "connection" between the mind and the body just wouldn't be there.

 

Also include @Gator Hazard in this response.

It's like if I tried to play golf after not making a swing for 5 years. When I tried to hit a ball I would still "know" how to swing but the body wouldn't cooperate. The body hasn't been "trained" to make a swing in 5 years.

Similar kind of thing with Jack, he'd be transported into a body where his "feels" don't translate and the motor pattern (or whatever you want to call it) is faulty. 

There would still be a difference if the body he is placed in has not swung a club in 5 years or if the body is that of a golfer who plays over 100.  The later still knows what it feels like to hold a club, for the body to swing, etc.  The variances that would be discerned between what the body knew with the old brain and what the body knows with the new brain could be bridged easier than if it had been 5 plus years.   I think there would be enough so that the brain could compensate with the feedback being given from the body.  No one is ever going to be able to prove one way or the other this specific example.  It is just my opinion.  And although "feel ain't real" I would think that with Jacks brain, my body, and the information given from a number of shots, feel could be adjusted appropriately to yield something far closer to expected results.

I would like to think that as a person who is shooting above 100, if you could plop Jack's brain in my body, we would break 90.  If not, I would give Jack permission to take us both out because I would be very disappointed that my body disappointed Jack's brain so much.  

Edited October 28, 2015 by Gator Hazard

[LagShaft]

There would still be a difference if the body he is placed in has not swung a club in 5 years or if the body is that of a golfer who plays over 100.  The later still knows what it feels like to hold a club, for the body to swing, etc.  The variances that would be discerned between what the body knew with the old brain and what the body knows with the new brain could be bridged easier than if it had been 5 plus years.   I think there would be enough so that the brain could compensate with the feedback being given from the body.  No one is ever going to be able to prove one way or the other this specific example.  It is just my opinion.  And although "feel ain't real" I would think that with Jacks brain, my body, and the information given from a number of shots, feel could be adjusted appropriately to yield something far closer to expected results.

I would like to think that as a person who is shooting above 100, if you could plop Jack's brain in my body, we would break 90.  If not, I would give Jack permission to take us both out because I would be very disappointed that my body disappointed Jack's brain so much.  

I love It...this thread makes a mockery of any mental debate but if you put it in the sports talk forum I'm sayin' put jacks brain in my body and I'm spotting anyone posting a stroke per hole and still waxing your little girl a&& all over the course!!! Lol He is the Greatest Golfer of all time and as far as I know no body here has a tour card!!!

Edited October 28, 2015 by LagShaft

[saevel25]

I would like to think that as a person who is shooting above 100, if you could plop Jack's brain in my body, we would break 90.  If not, I would give Jack permission to take us both out because I would be very disappointed that my body disappointed Jack's brain so much.  

Here's another point. Even if you put Jack's brain in your body. You are not going to be hitting 280-300 yard power fades all day. Your body is still limited by it's own physical limitations. Lets not forget that Jack was an ATHLETE. He was recruited by Ohio State to play basketball. 

People are probably imagining themselves hitting all these great shots. They wouldn't. We do not have Jack's build or physical ability to hit the ball. Athletes are not athletes because of their mind but of their body. It's the mind + athletic ability that makes athletes great. 

If you stick the mind of Michael Jordan in a 5'5" tall skinny white guy he's going to suck royally bad at basketball. If you stick the mind of Roger Clemens in the body of a skinny nerd he's not going to throw 90+ MPH fastballs. 

 

[LagShaft]

That's a good point the OP does not state that the body is not that of an exceptional athlete he just says that the body has no physical defects which says to me that he would be quite exceptional as most of us can Probably point out a defect or two in our own bodies.

[saevel25]

That's a good point the OP does not state that the body is not that of an exceptional athlete he just says that the body has no physical defects which says to me that he would be quite exceptional as most of us can Probably point out a defect or two in our own bodies.

By defect he is meaning a very glaring physical limitation. Like lets say the guy has a herniated disk or maybe had an accident to his knee. 

The OP was probably talking about your typical middle aged hacker on the course who can't break 100. 

You got to ask yourself, is that person the same athlete as Jack. Would that person have a shot at college athletics? Do they have the same hand eye coordination? Do they have the same flexibility and power? 

If you answer yes then why don't they have it now in their own golf swing? 

In the end Jack was a gifted golfer both physically and mentally. He was an athlete that chose to play golf. If you take his mind and dump it into your typical 100 shooter he's not going to gain Jack's physical abilities.