Paris Terror Attacks

[nevets88]

Warning - this video is terrifying and just awful. It shows the concert goers fleeing the Bataclan. Motionless bodies, blood, people hanging out the window, waiting out the shooters, one guy getting away, hopping.

http://www.lemonde.fr/attaques-a-paris/article/2015/11/14/daniel-psenny-journaliste-au-monde-j-ai-senti-comme-un-petard-qui-explosait-dans-mon-bras_4809665_4809495.html#meter_toaster

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you never think it will happen to you. It was just a friday night at a rock show. the atmosphere was so happy and everyone was dancing and smiling. and then when the men came through the front entrance and began the shooting, we naiively believed it was all part of the show. It wasn't just a terrorist attack, it was a massacre. Dozens of people were shot right infront of me. Pools of blood filled the floor. Cries of grown men who held their girlfriends dead bodies pierced the small music venue. Futures demolished, families heartbroken. in an instant. Shocked and alone, I pretended to be dead for over an hour, lying among people who could see their loved ones motionless.. Holding my breath, trying to not move, not cry - not giving those men the fear they longed to see. I was incredibly lucky to survive. But so many didn't. The people who had been there for the exact same reasons as I - to have a fun friday night were innocent. This world is cruel. And acts like this are suppose to highlight the depravity of humans and the images of those men circuling us like vultures will haunt me for the rest of my life. The way they meticoulsy aimed at shot people around the standing area i was in the centre of without any consideration for human life. It didn't feel real. i expected any moment for someone to say it was just a nightmare. But being a survivor of this horror lets me able to shed light on the heroes. To the man who reassured me and put his life on line to try and cover my brain whilst i whimpered, to the couple whose last words of love kept me believing the good in the world, to the police who succeded in rescuing hundreds of people, to the complete strangers who picked me up from the road and consoled me during the 45 minutes I truly believed the boy i loved was dead, to the injured man who i had mistaken for him and then on my recognition that he was not Amaury, held me and told me everything was going to be fine despite being all alone and scared himself, to the woman who opened her doors to the survivors, to the friend who offered me shelter and went out to buy new clothes so i wouldnt have to wear this blood stained top, to all of you who have sent caring messages of support - you make me believe this world has the potential to be better. to never let this happen again. but most of this is to the 80 people who were murdered inside that venue, who weren't as lucky, who didnt get to wake up today and to all the pain that their friends and families are going through. I am so sorry. There's nothing that will fix the pain. I feel priviledged to be there for their last breaths. And truly beliving that I would join them, I promise that their last thoughts were not on the animals who caused all this. It was thinking of the people they loved. As i lay down in the blood of strangers and waiting for my bullet to end my mere 22 years, I envisioned every face that I have ever loved and whispered I love you. over and over again. reflecting on the highlights of my life. Wishing that those i love knew just how much, wishing that they knew that no matter what happened to me, to keep belieivng in the good in people. to not let those men win. Last night, the lives of many were forever changed and it is up to us to be better people. to live lives that the innocent victims of this tragedy dreamt about but sadly will now never be able to fulfil. RIP angels. You will never be forgotten.

 

[nevets88]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0382kkr?ocid=socialflow_twitter&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=twitter

[Lihu]

“Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you.”

― Friedrich Nietzsche

[mvmac]

France is on the attack against Isis.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/15/middleeast/france-announces-raqqa-airstrikes-on-isis/index.html

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(CNN)French fighter jets bombed a series of ISIS sites in Raqqa, Syria, on Sunday in what officials described as a major bombardment.

The airstrikes came two days after a series of terrorist attacks in Paris. ISIS has claimed responsibility for the attacks, which France's President described as "an act of war."

ISIS claims Raqqa as the capital of its so-called caliphate. The targets in Sunday's airstrikes included a command center, a recruitment center, an ammunition storage base and a training camp for the terror group, said Mickael Soria, press adviser for France's defense minister.

Twelve aircraft, including 10 fighter jets, were involved in the airstrikes, Soria said. Twenty bombs were dropped, he said, and all of the targets were destroyed.

 

[rkim291968]

3 hours ago, mvmac said:

France is on the attack against Isis.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/15/middleeast/france-announces-raqqa-airstrikes-on-isis/index.html

 

A bit puzzling to me about this article is that they struck  "command center, an ammunition storage base, ..., etc."   I assume this isn't a new info that was found after the Friday's attack.   If the knew about it, why they (or others) didn't bomb those before?  

 

[saevel25]

9 hours ago, rkim291968 said:

A bit puzzling to me about this article is that they struck  "command center, an ammunition storage base, ..., etc."   I assume this isn't a new info that was found after the Friday's attack.   If the knew about it, why they (or others) didn't bomb those before?  

 

Maybe its more of the idea that countries just don't want to instigate a battle, and have a more retaliate response over being an aggressive preemptive response. 

I could see them having the information they need to use when ready. 

Honestly I think most of the western countries just need to take them all out. If you harbor terrorists you are out of the UN. 

[Ernest Jones]

France is doing exactly what ISIS wants them to do. When "Western" countries are bringing in and caring for the massive flood of Muslim refugees, it's pretty hard for ISIS to recruit/create Jihadists. But when those same "Western" countries are bombing the Caliphate it's much easier for terrorist groups to spin that and get traction with potential Jihadists.

I'm not saying that ISIS should go unpunished, but we have to be careful that we aren't being predictable and playing directly into their narrative.

[RussUK]

On 11/15/2015, 3:42:56, jbishop15 said:

Christianity has a blood-soaked history, CR. Millions and millions and millions of lives have been lost fighting in it's name.

Very true. There were 7 major "Holy" Crusades carried out in the name of God and christianity. So for anyone say Islam is the most dangerous threat is so far wide of the mark. Look, at the Siege of Acre in in 1191 King Richard the 1st executed 2000 men, women and children in front od Saladin's Muslim army simply because he wouldnt pay the ransom quick enough. Every major religion has done terrible things so to blame islam for the actions of a small number of fanatics is unfair.

I dont think we will se another 9/11 as it has been shown to only strengthen the resolve of a nation. Bad news is a i think we should be prepared for more attacks like Paris. US and UK have helped France before and we need to do so again.

[Mr. Desmond]

12 minutes ago, RussUK said:

Very true. There were 7 major "Holy" Crusades carried out in the name of God and christianity. So for anyone say Islam is the most dangerous threat is so far wide of the mark. Look, at the Siege of Acre in in 1191 King Richard the 1st executed 2000 men, women and children in front od Saladin's Muslim army simply because he wouldnt pay the ransom quick enough. Every major religion has done terrible things so to blame islam for the actions of a small number of fanatics is unfair.

I dont think we will se another 9/11 as it has been shown to only strengthen the resolve of a nation. Bad news is a i think we should be prepared for more attacks like Paris. US and UK have helped France before and we need to do so again.

We might want to keep this current -- going into the wayback machine 900 years to make a current point is not a great argument. Just saying ... you can do better.

[RussUK]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Desmond said:

We might want to keep this current -- going into the wayback machine 900 years to make a current point is not a great argument. Just saying ... you can do better.

Thats a fair point. I was just trying to say that Christianity has been just as bad as Islam. Always like show my working out when i give an answer 

Fact remains the same, if people go around blaming islam as a whole for the comparitavley small number of radicalists then ISIS are gerring what they want. They know the only way to "win" is to get the backing of their religion. If the west starts tarring all Islamic people with the same brush then they are well on their way.

Its a scary and unsettling time we live in but i dont think its a "war" that will ever truley be won. 

[Mr. Desmond]

10 minutes ago, RussUK said:

Thats a fair point. I was just trying to say that Christianity has been just as bad as Islam. Always like show my working out when i give an answer 

Fact remains the same, if people go around blaming islam as a whole for the comparitavley small number of radicalists then ISIS are gerring what they want. They know the only way to "win" is to get the backing of their religion. If the west starts tarring all Islamic people with the same brush then they are well on their way.

Its a scary and unsettling time we live in but i dont think its a "war" that will ever truley be won. 

Good points. Thanks.

It's a tough subject, people misusing their religion for personal gain, or is it their true beliefs? From what I understand, there is little education of the masses in the ME, and mullahs on a mission of hate indoctrinate the uneducated and naive, and help birth jihadists. I don't know but perhaps it's like Christians here, who pull a Biblical quote here, and one from over here to make a point -- but it's not a valid point - it's merely done to win people over, or win an argument. Of course, most Christians don't run around these days beginning religious wars. So what do you do with jihadists who are 900 years behind social more's and acceptable behavior, and decide "if you don't believe what I believe, we kill you." 

Edited November 16, 2015 by Mr. Desmond

[rkim291968]

2 hours ago, Mr. Desmond said:

So what do you do with jihadists who are 900 years behind social more's and acceptable behavior, and decide "if you don't believe what I believe, we kill you." 

Turning the other cheek will not work against people intent to kill others and themselves to live in dark ages.    Fighting such enemy is a politically messy business which will take a huge human tolls that no government is willing to take.  I am afraid it will take another 9/11 type of event to move a country into full war against ISIS.    Or, if ISIS becomes more successful and start gobbling up neighboring territories (Turkey, Iran, Saudis, Jordan), maybe, that will trigger the full on ground war against ISIS.  

[Lihu]

3 hours ago, RussUK said:

Very true. There were 7 major "Holy" Crusades carried out in the name of God and christianity. So for anyone say Islam is the most dangerous threat is so far wide of the mark. Look, at the Siege of Acre in in 1191 King Richard the 1st executed 2000 men, women and children in front od Saladin's Muslim army simply because he wouldnt pay the ransom quick enough. Every major religion has done terrible things so to blame islam for the actions of a small number of fanatics is unfair.

I dont think we will se another 9/11 as it has been shown to only strengthen the resolve of a nation. Bad news is a i think we should be prepared for more attacks like Paris. US and UK have helped France before and we need to do so again.

Yes, and the first one was to protect the Byzantine against the invading Seljuk. . .

[RandallT]

Is there a parallel here between Hollande and Trudeau (the father)?

Hollande:

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34836439

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Speaking during a joint session of both houses of parliament, Mr Hollande said the constitution needed to be amended as "we need an appropriate tool we can use without having to resort to the state of emergency".

Other measures he said would be pursued included:

• 5,000 extra police posts in the next two years and no new cuts in the defence budget
• Making it easier to strip dual nationals of their French citizenship if they are convicted of a terrorist offence, as long as this did not render them stateless
• Speeding up the deportation of foreigners who pose "a particularly grave threat to the security of the nation"
• Pushing for greater European action against arms trafficking and greater penalties for it in France

He is going down the path of limiting liberties to secure order. Plus he seems willing to take the attack to ISIS on foreign soil.

 

Trudeau:

I'm not up to speed on what Trudeau did in Quebec, but I have seen references to him being resolute in subduing unrest, despite many, many objections to the loss of civil liberties (restored after unrest subdued).

Is this the sign of a strong, bold leadership to protect the people, or is it a dangerous sign for freedoms? 

Regardless of how we answer that, Hollande seems to be the most resolute of any leader on the world stage right now. Obama seemed a bit lost at the G20 to me, but then again, I'm likely biased because I've not been impressed with his actions thus far in his presidency regarding the fight against radical Islamic ideology. Thus far, he has downplayed and underestimated the jihad. That seemed to continue today, as he mostly said that we should remain mostly steady on our course.

Can Hollande do this himself or will he need a significant number of allies? Is he walking into a trap that ISIS will exploit?

[rkim291968]

Heard a little bit of Obama speech at G20.   The bit I heard seems like a political speech given to American voters, and fellow politicians.   I don't think that was very meaningful in the G20 & the terrorist attack context.   I was expecting a lot more on what US will do with the rest of nations to fight this cancer.

[Lihu]

54 minutes ago, RandallT said:

Can Hollande do this himself or will he need a significant number of allies? Is he walking into a trap that ISIS will exploit?

France has the 6th largest military force in the world. I think they can do it themselves, but they will, hopefully, not have to. . .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Armed_Forces

Whatever political trap ISIS is planting is not going to work very well since they already claimed responsibility. 129 civilians dead and the way they were murdered is not going to recruit moderate people within the Muslim community (like >99% of them would NOT support ISIS).

[RandallT]

1 hour ago, rkim291968 said:

Heard a little bit of Obama speech at G20.   The bit I heard seems like a political speech given to American voters, and fellow politicians.   I don't think that was very meaningful in the G20 & the terrorist attack context.   I was expecting a lot more on what US will do with the rest of nations to fight this cancer.

Exactly! That was precisely my feeling. I didn't see him play on a world stage. He looked like he was debating Mitt Romney.

[isukgolf]

20 minutes ago, RandallT said:

Exactly! That was precisely my feeling. I didn't see him play on a world stage. He looked like he was debating Mitt Romney.

I am not a political guy ... but agree ...