HCP Adjustment

[Abu3baid]

Not sure if this is governed by the rules of golf or not, so please feel free to move the post if necessary.

Situation:  Friend of mine has never scored less than 100 on the course we always play.  He was given a HCP of 33 for the scores submitted, but a because max HCP used in a tournament is 28 that's what he played with during the scramble that we ended up shooting a net 62 which we ended up coming in second.

Last week we play in the stroke play tournament and his HCP is reduced to 25 for the tournament, (which I still don't think makes sense) but they used the excuse that he just finished second in the scramble.  Long story short he ended up shooting a 107 which is pretty much right around his average score.

Today was the stabelford tournament and to our surprise they had reduced his HCP once again to 18 this time.  When asked about it, they said it was because of the scramble score.  (He ended up counting up all his scores today and shot a 111).

I don't understand their logic, and it just makes no sense.. Wouldn't his individual scores count for a lot more than a stupid scramble?  Should the scramble have any input in terms of HCP?  Something is not right in Riyadh.. What do you think?

[Club Rat]

In a scramble, players are in a team event with each player contributing from other team members drives, approach shots, chips, putts, etc. Basically the team has four chances for each hole. Handicaps are seldom used in scrambles, but when they are used, a reduction is common, determined by the event host.

Stroke play events are usually played within flights, or overall net and gross divisions. It's basically the decision of the event host. They may consider a ceiling or limit for players handicaps, but allow players of all abilities.

In a Stableford event, basically a players net score can do no worse than obtaining zero points regardless, as opposed to a blow-out hole when a player could have a horrible hole with a score of 10 or worse and pretty much be out of the competition.

Again, it's determined by the host with all guidelines noted up front for the events. Before entering, inquire with the host for answers on limitations. They set guidelines from experience and discussions on promoting the event for fairness to all, and probably elected to set limitations to enhance participation.

[Rulesman]

Handicaps are not covered by the Rules of Golf. There are various systems around the world and each has its own rules.

I understand that the CONGU handicapping system is (normally) used in Saudi.

If so, it would seem that the handicap committee do not really understand the system.

1) Scramble scores should never be used for handicap change purposes.

2) Handicaps should not be adjusted as a 'knee jerk' reaction to one exceptional score in any type of event.

Edited November 28, 2015 by Rulesman

[Abu3baid]

3 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

Handicaps are not covered by the Rules of Golf. There are various systems around the world but I understand that the CONGU handicapping system is (normally) used in Saudi.

If so, it would seem that the handicap committee do not really understand the system.

1) Scramble scores should never be used for handicap change purposes.

2) Handicaps should not be adjusted as a 'knee jerk' reaction to one exceptional score in any type of event.

Those are two very important points IMO..  It was the head of the committee that my friend argued with in front of me, and to me it seemed like the guy had no leg to stand on.  However,  how can we address this now?  I mean, is there any governing body that this can be escalated to or are these guys free to do what ever they want?  It doesn't even pass the sniff test that a guy that can't break 100 and scores 107 in the last tournament gets an 18 HCP.. You are basically removing any chance he would ever have at winning as he will not play anywhere close to that.. 

[Rulesman]

On the assumption that the club is licensed to use the CONGU system, get the head of committee to check out his obligations under the Rules in the CONGU book.

If he fails to follow the regulations the club could lose its licence.

The player could appeal to the Area Authority which is the Saudi Arabian Golf Federation.

[Fourputt]

4 hours ago, Abu3baid said:

Not sure if this is governed by the rules of golf or not, so please feel free to move the post if necessary.

Situation:  Friend of mine has never scored less than 100 on the course we always play.  He was given a HCP of 33 for the scores submitted, but a because max HCP used in a tournament is 28 that's what he played with during the scramble that we ended up shooting a net 62 which we ended up coming in second.

Last week we play in the stroke play tournament and his HCP is reduced to 25 for the tournament, (which I still don't think makes sense) but they used the excuse that he just finished second in the scramble.  Long story short he ended up shooting a 107 which is pretty much right around his average score.

Today was the stabelford tournament and to our surprise they had reduced his HCP once again to 18 this time.  When asked about it, they said it was because of the scramble score.  (He ended up counting up all his scores today and shot a 111).

I don't understand their logic, and it just makes no sense.. Wouldn't his individual scores count for a lot more than a stupid scramble?  Should the scramble have any input in terms of HCP?  Something is not right in Riyadh.. What do you think?

That's because there is no possible twist of logic that can make this a reasonable act.  Your buddy got screwed by a clueless handicap committee.  No possible justification for what they did.  There is no fairness or logic in modifying a player's handicap on the basis of a single score, and doing so because of a single scramble score is sheer stupidity.  

For one thing, a net 62 is not an exceptional scramble score, at least not in my experience.  If it was a two man team competition, then 62 is pretty good, but it's still a scramble, and as such, a lot of really bad shots get tossed and never count for anything.  

Something is very not right with your club's handicap committee.

[ghalfaire]

I really don't understand the post.  There are no INDIVIDUAL scores in a scramble, at least none I have ever been involved with.  In any scramble I have every played where there was a team handicap the handicaps of the INDIVIDUALS were summed up and some small percentage (12.5% or so) of that used for the TEAM handicap.  Most scrambles I have played in were fund raising events and you could buy Mulligans and no handicaps were given. The entire story just doesn't make any sense to me and if it's true certainly not within the rules of how handicaps are assigned or calculated.  

[Abu3baid]

28 minutes ago, ghalfaire said:

I really don't understand the post.  There are no INDIVIDUAL scores in a scramble, at least none I have ever been involved with.  In any scramble I have every played where there was a team handicap the handicaps of the INDIVIDUALS were summed up and some small percentage (12.5% or so) of that used for the TEAM handicap.  Most scrambles I have played in were fund raising events and you could buy Mulligans and no handicaps were given. The entire story just doesn't make any sense to me and if it's true certainly not within the rules of how handicaps are assigned or calculated.  

Not sure what you mean.. This wasn't a fundraiser and there weren't mulligans, the only thing you could do is place your ball and other than that all rules of golf were observed.. 

What the handicap Comittee did was enter a 75 for each of us as if we had played it alone.. It was a dumb decision on their part and just last week we convinced them that it was stupid.  Finally.

 

[rkim291968]

On 11/28/2015 at 8:44 AM, Fourputt said:

That's because there is no possible twist of logic that can make this a reasonable act.  Your buddy got screwed by a clueless handicap committee.  No possible justification for what they did.  There is no fairness or logic in modifying a player's handicap on the basis of a single score, and doing so because of a single scramble score is sheer stupidity.  

For one thing, a net 62 is not an exceptional scramble score, at least not in my experience.  If it was a two man team competition, then 62 is pretty good, but it's still a scramble, and as such, a lot of really bad shots get tossed and never count for anything.  

Something is very not right with your club's handicap committee.

+1.   I think the committee can make things right by counting your friends last two rounds toward his handicap and using it for future tournaments.   The committee was acting clueless or suspected that your friend is sandbagging?

[turtleback]

On 11/28/2015 at 5:06 AM, Abu3baid said:

Not sure if this is governed by the rules of golf or not, so please feel free to move the post if necessary.

Situation:  Friend of mine has never scored less than 100 on the course we always play.  He was given a HCP of 33 for the scores submitted, but a because max HCP used in a tournament is 28 that's what he played with during the scramble that we ended up shooting a net 62 which we ended up coming in second.

Last week we play in the stroke play tournament and his HCP is reduced to 25 for the tournament, (which I still don't think makes sense) but they used the excuse that he just finished second in the scramble.  Long story short he ended up shooting a 107 which is pretty much right around his average score.

Today was the stabelford tournament and to our surprise they had reduced his HCP once again to 18 this time.  When asked about it, they said it was because of the scramble score.  (He ended up counting up all his scores today and shot a 111).

I don't understand their logic, and it just makes no sense.. Wouldn't his individual scores count for a lot more than a stupid scramble?  Should the scramble have any input in terms of HCP?  Something is not right in Riyadh.. What do you think?

What handicap are we talking about, because none of that seems to fit any system I know of.  

[bubble]

handicap used for player rating and handicap management is one thing. it's usually stroke play or stabbleford. scramble dont count for official handicap management yet the net result for the competition will be calculated with this handicap.

nevertheless a country club may lower the max handicap taken in consideration for the tournament result as it is judge too high for equity. this will not change the handicap calculation with the official system.

 

 

 

 

[No Mulligans]

3 hours ago, Abu3baid said:

Not sure what you mean.. This wasn't a fundraiser and there weren't mulligans, the only thing you could do is place your ball and other than that all rules of golf were observed.. 

What the handicap Comittee did was enter a 75 for each of us as if we had played it alone.. It was a dumb decision on their part and just last week we convinced them that it was stupid.  Finally.

 

Imagine a scramble where you have a scratch player with 3 players that have never broken 110 and have the max handicap.  As a team you might use the scratch players shots between 90% and 100% of the time and would score somewhere around par (which the scratch player could have done by himself).

It would make no sense to average the handicaps... 36, 36, 36, 0 = an average of 27.  If you allow those handicaps then that even par score would have been a net -27 and that makes no sense and would be completely unfair.  Let the high handicappers use their true handicap and you can pretty much expect them to win, especially if you team them up with a really good player.

It's hard to come up with a correct handicap system in a scramble.

Scrambles are just for fun and shouldn't be taken seriously.  Don't worry about it.

[ghalfaire]

12 hours ago, Abu3baid said:

Not sure what you mean.. This wasn't a fundraiser and there weren't mulligans, the only thing you could do is place your ball and other than that all rules of golf were observed.. 

What the handicap Comittee did was enter a 75 for each of us as if we had played it alone.. It was a dumb decision on their part and just last week we convinced them that it was stupid.  Finally.

 

Maybe I am the one that doesn't understand.  When I read your post it sounded like you were playing in a scramble tournament and your buddy was assigned a 28 handicap.  But in scrambles there are no individual scores, only team scores.  That being the case there was no reason for a handicap reduction because your buddy had not "played a round" of golf to base such a reduction on.  You said he shot a net 62 and your team won second place. But maybe I read it wrong and your mention of a scramble had nothing to do with what you were talking about.  But it confused me.