Why Isn't It OK To Drive Your Push Carts or Trolleys Through The Green?

[Lihu]

5 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

Youre experience is awfully limited then, and you're also off base in the sense that you're equating golfers of poor skill level with golfers that have bad etiquette.  Those are not really related.

Not at all, just stating people who count every single stroke in a round tend to take better care of the greens, if for anything to insure a better score. If I was making my 6th shot for a double versus my 3rd for a birdie, my perspectives would be different. I've been in both situations inside of 4 years, and even my perspective has changed. Not because I'm a better person, but because I want better scores and would like to expect the same from others.

To me, it's not an etiquette issue so much as self interest.

[JonMA1]

10 hours ago, Dave325 said:

I carry my clubs and try to always walk around the fringe and place my clubs in the path to the next tee. My club has some of the best greens in the area... And I would like to see them stay that way. My rule is.... If there is any question, then error on the side of the conservative and take extra care.

I agree with this. There always seems to be a logical spot to park my push cart relative to the first putt, the pin and the next tee. I don't really see a need to bring it onto the green.

Now if a greenskeeper were to tell me more traffic was better for the greens (as in some of the quoted articles), I guess that would be different. But like you @Dave325, I want the greens to remain as healthy as possible. 

6 hours ago, Lihu said:

Not at all, just stating people who count every single stroke in a round tend to take better care of the greens, if for anything to insure a better score. If I was making my 6th shot for a double versus my 3rd for a birdie, my perspectives would be different. I've been in both situations inside of 4 years, and even my perspective has changed. Not because I'm a better person, but because I want better scores and would like to expect the same from others.

To me, it's not an etiquette issue so much as self interest.

I'm still a crappy player after 4 years and my perspective doesn't change whether I'm shooting for a double bogey score vs a par on a hole. Hell, if I shoot a quad on a hole, I'm every bit as likely to fix someone else's ball mark afterwards.

I'd go as far as saying that new players or those who play once a year might not know how to take care of a golf course, but as others have said, scores have less to do with any of this. I've seen older, better players treat a putting green as an ash tray - and they know better. From my limited experience, lower scores do not diminish how much of a selfish a-hole someone might be.

[colin007]

I don't think there's any correlation between carrying your bag and how good a player you are. To me that's ludicrous.

I'd be more apt to listen to an argument about better players taking care of the course more, but even then that's a shaky argument.

[Golfingdad]

3 minutes ago, colin007 said:

I don't think there's any correlation between carrying your bag and how good a player you are. To me that's ludicrous.

I'd be more apt to listen to an argument about better players taking care of the course more, but even then that's a shaky argument.

They're both ludicrous.  They're also both veering far off the topic.

[Lihu]

The main thing is that pushing a cart through the green has the perception of more potential damage because there are more points of contact with the green instead of two.

Not sure how that actually correlates to damage? Dry hard greens in the current afternoon conditions are probably not going to be damaged as much as soft and mushy ones right after a rain or in the early morning dew.

I would just assume not push a cart over a green for the same reason I would not carry my bag over one. It doesn't really same that much time.

One more argument against pushing a cart through the green is that the chances of crossing another golfers line is much higher than just carrying.

[saevel25]

7 minutes ago, Lihu said:

I would just assume not push a cart over a green for the same reason I would not carry my bag over one. It doesn't really same that much time.

One more argument against pushing a cart through the green is that the chances of crossing another golfers line is much higher than just carrying.

I would think of it this way. Lets say you walk across the green that is 30 yards wide. Lets say your stride is 3 feet. That means you would make contact with the green about 30 times. That cart would be in contact with the ground the entire 30 yards. Another issue would be if the green is located that people push the carts across an area over and over again. Over time you could create rutting, and wear marks. Walking across the green is so random there isn't really anyway for an area to get worn out over time by it. 

I do think carts have the potential to cause issues with certain greens. I also think it's respecting the course. We are taught not to drive the cart close to the green. I think most people associate keeping anything with wheels off the green. 

[iacas]

8 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

I would think of it this way. Lets say you walk across the green that is 30 yards wide. Lets say your stride is 3 feet. That means you would make contact with the green about 30 times. That cart would be in contact with the ground the entire 30 yards. Another issue would be if the green is located that people push the carts across an area over and over again. Over time you could create rutting, and wear marks. Walking across the green is so random there isn't really anyway for an area to get worn out over time by it. 

I do think carts have the potential to cause issues with certain greens. I also think it's respecting the course. We are taught not to drive the cart close to the green. I think most people associate keeping anything with wheels off the green. 

But perhaps that should change?

The problem as I see it is that it can't really change here in the U.S. You can't help but walk on the greens, after all, but even walking on soft greens can put dents and marks on the greens. The soil in Australia is very sandy and drains really well. It's firm. We tend to have more clay (particularly around here) and softer soils.

[Golfingdad]

27 minutes ago, Lihu said:

The main thing is that pushing a cart through the green has the perception of more potential damage because there are more points of contact with the green instead of two.

Not sure how that actually correlates to damage? Dry hard greens in the current afternoon conditions are probably not going to be damaged as much as soft and mushy ones right after a rain or in the early morning dew.

I would just assume not push a cart over a green for the same reason I would not carry my bag over one. It doesn't really same that much time.

One more argument against pushing a cart through the green is that the chances of crossing another golfers line is much higher than just carrying.

 

15 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

I would think of it this way. Lets say you walk across the green that is 30 yards wide. Lets say your stride is 3 feet. That means you would make contact with the green about 30 times. That cart would be in contact with the ground the entire 30 yards. Another issue would be if the green is located that people push the carts across an area over and over again. Over time you could create rutting, and wear marks. Walking across the green is so random there isn't really anyway for an area to get worn out over time by it. 

I do think carts have the potential to cause issues with certain greens. I also think it's respecting the course. We are taught not to drive the cart close to the green. I think most people associate keeping anything with wheels off the green. 

These are good points (except your last paragraph Lihu - it's nonsense ;)) except I'd just point out two things:

Push carts have 3 wheels, not two, and the weight they carry is considerably less  than what each step is supporting. Maybe something like 20 pounds of pressure versus 200??

[saevel25]

5 minutes ago, iacas said:

The problem as I see it is that it can't really change here in the U.S. You can't help but walk on the greens, after all, but even walking on soft greens can put dents and marks on the greens. 

I guess courses are not willing to shut down for that reason. Though I have been forced to stop play if there is standing water on the greens. Besides that I've never been not allowed on a course because it was saturated with water. I wonder if courses should shut down the course if the greens reach a certain point of saturation. 

As I see it, the occurrence of that happening is very small that it wouldn't hurt the bottom line to do so for a day if it saves them having to repair a green. 

[isukgolf]

A question for the people that carry your bag when walking ... do you walk on the green with it on your back?  

I "cut" the corner on a green with my cart one time ... my golf buddy took exception ... there was absolutely no damage ... heck my ball did not even leave a mark when it landed on the green.  I never thought twice about before he mentioned it.

How much it too much ... does a 300lb golfer with soft spikes damage the green more than my 100lb cart?

In the end, I think it is just one of those "things" I accept and move on, and will never cut a corner on the green with my cart ...

 

[iacas]

7 minutes ago, isukgolf said:

A question for the people that carry your bag when walking ... do you walk on the green with it on your back?

Occasionally, but since I started playing golf with spikes, the less you had to walk on the green, the better off everyone was, so I still mostly avoid the green surface just out of habit.

I weigh a lot less even with my bag than others playing golf, and my shoes barely even have nubs on them let alone even soft cleats. So if I do walk across the green… it's not a big deal.

[No Mulligans]

1 hour ago, Golfingdad said:

 

These are good points (except your last paragraph Lihu - it's nonsense ;)) except I'd just point out two things:

Push carts have 3 wheels, not two, and the weight they carry is considerably less  than what each step is supporting. Maybe something like 20 pounds of pressure versus 200??

30 to 40 pounds divided by three of four wheels, 10 lbs per wheel?  There is more inertia pushing downward with a footstep than the wheels of a pushcart.  I'm not an engineer but I think the difference may be more than 200 vs. 20 lbs.

Regardless, I've never seen course damage caused by a pushcart.  Although I haven't been looking for it and pushcarts aren't taken on the greens.  The  main damage I see is from riding carts, although not damage to the greens.

The walking on the green I was thinking of had to do with reading the green from various angles.  My experience is that the poor players, on average, do this less than the good players.  The PGA players are perhaps the worse I've seen for this but perhaps that is part of the reason they putt so well.

[Golfingdad]

1 minute ago, No Mulligans said:

30 to 40 pounds divided by three of four wheels, 10 lbs per wheel?  There is more inertia pushing downward with a footstep than the wheels of a pushcart.  I'm not an engineer but I think the difference may be more than 200 vs. 20 lbs.

Regardless, I've never seen course damage caused by a pushcart.  Although I haven't been looking for it and pushcarts aren't taken on the greens.  The  main damage I see is from riding carts, although not damage to the greens.

I was being conservative and assuming a  loaded push cart weighed 60 lbs.

One of the best points made in this thread against the idea, I think, is the possibility that you could pick up something jagged in the wheels.  They are wide, mostly, but they frequently do have some treads, so if you get a twig or pebble caught in there you're much less likely to notice than if something was stuck to the bottom of your shoe.

But if somebody is careful and aware, then yeah, it's very unlikely they'd cause damage to the greens so I'm not going to worry too much if they push across the green.

[Lihu]

2 hours ago, No Mulligans said:

30 to 40 pounds divided by three of four wheels, 10 lbs per wheel?  There is more inertia pushing downward with a footstep than the wheels of a pushcart.  I'm not an engineer but I think the difference may be more than 200 vs. 20 lbs.

Regardless, I've never seen course damage caused by a pushcart.  Although I haven't been looking for it and pushcarts aren't taken on the greens.  The  main damage I see is from riding carts, although not damage to the greens.

The walking on the green I was thinking of had to do with reading the green from various angles.  My experience is that the poor players, on average, do this less than the good players.  The PGA players are perhaps the worse I've seen for this but perhaps that is part of the reason they putt so well.

Point of contact on the wheels, let's use three for now, is about a square inch. 10 psi for a 30 pound cart. A size 11 shoe in wide is about 48-50 square inches. 200/48 is a little over 4psi.

The push cart exerts over twice the pressure***.

 

***Of course, people don't walk with perfectly flat feet.

[sjduffers]

27 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Point of contact on the wheels, let's use three for now, is about a square inch. 10 psi for a 30 pound cart. A size 11 shoe in wide is about 48-50 square inches. 200/48 is a little over 4psi.

The push cart exerts over twice the pressure***.

 

***Of course, people don't walk with perfectly flat feet.

You must not have looked carefully at modern push carts: their wheels are easily 3-4 inches wide, so the contact area is at least 3-4 square inches per wheel (assuming a contact area along the circumference of the wheel of only 1 inch wide, which I think is also an underestimation).  

Contrast that with a 200 lbs man with a size 9 shoe (i.e. me!), not walking flat-footed but normally, i.e. making a transition from heel to toe: there is probably only 10-20 square inches in contact with the ground until I am at rest.  That's a lot more pressure than a push cart!

When the greens are soft and wet, just being at rest (without moving) leaves a visible indentation that does not bounce back when the weight is removed: it is very easy to see.

Edited January 2, 2016 by sjduffers

[Golfingdad]

1 hour ago, Lihu said:

Point of contact on the wheels, let's use three for now, is about a square inch. 10 psi for a 30 pound cart. A size 11 shoe in wide is about 48-50 square inches. 200/48 is a little over 4psi.

The push cart exerts over twice the pressure***.

 

***Of course, people don't walk with perfectly flat feet.

Not only do people not walk with flat feet but even with a smooth and calm walk the force they're exerting at the end of each step is actually more than theit weight.

However, the difference might be negligible enough that when factored in with everything else, including the perception, that maybe it's just not worth it.

I still think it's worth discussion though to perhaps alter the perception. :)

[No Mulligans]

4 hours ago, Lihu said:

Point of contact on the wheels, let's use three for now, is about a square inch. 10 psi for a 30 pound cart. A size 11 shoe in wide is about 48-50 square inches. 200/48 is a little over 4psi.

The push cart exerts over twice the pressure***.

 

***Of course, people don't walk with perfectly flat feet.

Divide by four for a pushcart and use 3-4 square inches per wheel, that's 15 to 16 square incehs.  Your analysis would work of a one wheel pushcart with about a 1 inch wheel.

Yes, people do not walk flat footed and you ignored downward inertia.  Of course you know that being an engineer.  

Just do some field work, put your hand on the ground and have a 4 wheel push cart roll over your fingers, then have a 200 lb man while walking with golf spikes heel first step on your fingers (or even with spikeless golf shoes for that matter).  I'd be willing to do one of those but not the other.  Can you guess which one?

[Lihu]

3 hours ago, sjduffers said:

You must not have looked carefully at modern push carts: their wheels are easily 3-4 inches wide, so the contact area is at least 3-4 square inches per wheel (assuming a contact area along the circumference of the wheel of only 1 inch wide, which I think is also an underestimation).  

Contrast that with a 200 lbs man with a size 9 shoe (i.e. me!), not walking flat-footed but normally, i.e. making a transition from heel to toe: there is probably only 10-20 square inches in contact with the ground until I am at rest.  That's a lot more pressure than a push cart!

When the greens are soft and wet, just being at rest (without moving) leaves a visible indentation that does not bounce back when the weight is removed: it is very easy to see.

Not really. I only looked at my playing partners trolleys, and the ones in the groups ahead and behind. On the cement, they seem to make contact at one point which appears to be smaller than 1 square inch so I guessed 1. I would imagine if they rolled them on the greens it would be similar?

In any case, it was not intended to be taken too seriously. Hence the laughing emoticon. 

 

What I think of this topic, is that it really opens up doors that aren't worth opening. Lots of good points counter to the proposal but no compelling reason to change.