Putting Woes

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Howling Coyote said:

OK you are all advocating hitting the ball with no follow-through.

Nobody is advocating any such thing. That makes no sense.

In all of those graphs - even the bad one - there's a moment of instant (and substantial) deceleration when the putter head hits the ball, and then gradual continued deceleration after.

The "bad" one has a period of positive acceleration after impact, though.

1 hour ago, Howling Coyote said:

If one hits the ball without follow-through then the law of conservation of momentum applies.

Again, nobody's saying that.

1 hour ago, Howling Coyote said:

To achieve follow-though the putter, which has slowed down post impact, must be accelerated back to its original speed so that it can "follow" the ball.  At least that is my interpretation of follow-through.  Am I totally off my rocker???

Yes. The putter should not be "accelerated back to its original speed."

[DrvFrShow]

4 hours ago, Howling Coyote said:

Hmmm...

OK you are all advocating hitting the ball with no follow-through.  This is truly hitting the ball and quite easy to do.  Much easier than follow-through.  

No. Smooth stroke all the way through. Don't stop. Don't try to accelerate the club. Let the club's momentum do the job. Look at the graphs Erik posted. 

What you're describing is a little pop stroke. That used to work great back on greens back in 1968 - 70 that had a stimp around 6. Now greens are a lot faster, sometimes around 12-13 at your local course. That kind of stroke is difficult to control. 

[inthehole]

OP - I'm with ya ... putting is the bane of my golf.    I've played more golf in the 5 years I've been playing than anyone gainfully employed should.    Putting still stinks.   I have a garage full of putters - tried everything.   Read practically everything on it.    Practiced my ass off in the living room in the winters - doesn't translate to the course.    Over the last year, I'm seeing very slight gains, which is a positive.    What kills me is the 4-6 footers ... anything more than that I never expect to make it, but my make ratio on those 4-6 footers is astoundingly pitiful.   Anyways, just wanted to say I feel your pain ... putting to me seems like playing an instrument - some guys have it, some just don't & aren't wired to be able to do it well.    Maybe eventually we'll all get better with reps ... time will tell. 

 

I will mention that the only thing that seems to have helped me last year is shortening my back swing quite a bit on shorter putts <10 ft ... question for all - do you guys consciously take an abbreviated backswing for shorter putts or a more typical standard backswing ?   To me, just makes sense that there's less room for error by introducing putterhead rotation (pulling or pushing) with less of a back swing ..

[Ernest Jones]

1 hour ago, inthehole said:

OP - I'm with ya ... putting is the bane of my golf.    I've played more golf in the 5 years I've been playing than anyone gainfully employed should.    Putting still stinks.   I have a garage full of putters - tried everything.   Read practically everything on it.    Practiced my ass off in the living room in the winters - doesn't translate to the course.    Over the last year, I'm seeing very slight gains, which is a positive.    What kills me is the 4-6 footers ... anything more than that I never expect to make it, but my make ratio on those 4-6 footers is astoundingly pitiful.   Anyways, just wanted to say I feel your pain ... putting to me seems like playing an instrument - some guys have it, some just don't & aren't wired to be able to do it well.    Maybe eventually we'll all get better with reps ... time will tell. 

 

I will mention that the only thing that seems to have helped me last year is shortening my back swing quite a bit on shorter putts <10 ft ... question for all - do you guys consciously take an abbreviated backswing for shorter putts or a more typical standard backswing ?   To me, just makes sense that there's less room for error by introducing putterhead rotation (pulling or pushing) with less of a back swing ..

I can only speak to myself, but when my distance control is at its absolute optimum, my backstroke tends to feel longer than you would expect. This helps me remember to just let the pendulum swing back through as opposed to muscling it. When I'm in that groove, it's in the hole or 6"-12"  tap-ins all day long.

If you're still really struggling with your line after all that practice, I would suggest getting fit for an Edel, or, at he very least, getting someone to verify your aim bias and help you find a putter head you can aim at the hole. 

[boogielicious]

7 hours ago, inthehole said:

OP - I'm with ya ... putting is the bane of my golf.    I've played more golf in the 5 years I've been playing than anyone gainfully employed should.    Putting still stinks.   I have a garage full of putters - tried everything.   Read practically everything on it.    Practiced my ass off in the living room in the winters - doesn't translate to the course.    Over the last year, I'm seeing very slight gains, which is a positive.    What kills me is the 4-6 footers ... anything more than that I never expect to make it, but my make ratio on those 4-6 footers is astoundingly pitiful.   Anyways, just wanted to say I feel your pain ... putting to me seems like playing an instrument - some guys have it, some just don't & aren't wired to be able to do it well.    Maybe eventually we'll all get better with reps ... time will tell. 

 

I will mention that the only thing that seems to have helped me last year is shortening my back swing quite a bit on shorter putts <10 ft ... question for all - do you guys consciously take an abbreviated backswing for shorter putts or a more typical standard backswing ?   To me, just makes sense that there's less room for error by introducing putterhead rotation (pulling or pushing) with less of a back swing ..

You can play with a shorter backstroke like Brandt Snedeker, but the control comes from a smooth stroke. I prefer a longer stroke and the swing feel of letting gravity move the club. The club face control would be harder IMO with a short jabbing stroke. A friend of mine, who is single digit HC, has a short jabbing stroke and his putting is variable for both distance control and direction. My putting is much more consistent.

[iacas]

10 hours ago, boogielicious said:

You can play with a shorter backstroke like Brandt Snedeker, but the control comes from a smooth stroke. I prefer a longer stroke and the swing feel of letting gravity move the club. The club face control would be harder IMO with a short jabbing stroke. A friend of mine, who is single digit HC, has a short jabbing stroke and his putting is variable for both distance control and direction. My putting is much more consistent.

Brandt Snedeker's stroke is still not accelerating through and after impact. I can make a very short "pop" type stroke that still looks like a squished version of "good" or "excellent" above.

[Dave2512]

Perception colors putting performance. Seems quite a few don't look at actual stats as much as how a missed putt impacts score. That missed putt for bogey could have saved a par thing.

Amateur golfers are fooled into thinking improved putting would improve scores but it's a symptom of crappy ball striking. if I 3 putt it's not because I blew a putt is because I'm so far from the damn hole I may as well chip it. 

[DrvFrShow]

Still I three putted a number of holes where I started 6 feet from the hole, missed the first putt, then had the 2 foot come back lip out. Some more practice on the green wouldn't have hurt. 

[Howling Coyote]

On February 28, 2016 at 5:40 AM, boogielicious said:

You can play with a shorter backstroke like Brandt Snedeker, but the control comes from a smooth stroke. I prefer a longer stroke and the swing feel of letting gravity move the club. The club face control would be harder IMO with a short jabbing stroke. A friend of mine, who is single digit HC, has a short jabbing stroke and his putting is variable for both distance control and direction. My putting is much more consistent.

Brandt Snedeker, pops the ball with almost no follow through.

If I go to a flat indoor practice green (like Golf Smith) and hit from 5 feet (60 in).  Without follow-through there is almost a uniform scattering from about 4 in left of the hole to 4 inches right with some balls going into the hole.  This +/- 4 inches translates into +/-3.8 degrees of error on the putter face, that can never be eliminated.  Looking down at the putter +/-3.8 degrees can not be seen.  I can maybe see a 5 degree twist in the putter face.

To me a follow-through mean a mock practice stroke with no ball.  Then imagine that same stroke with the ball.  The instant the putter faces resistance you want it to follow the same pace as without the ball.  That's the pace.  The line is achieved by looking out at the hole and trying to visualize the whole line and then focusing on the first 5 feet of it (all of it for a 5 foot putt).  When I do this the scattering are so tight that half the balls go in and I have to move out to 10 foot putts to find the true angular error.  Now I am getting +/-3 inches at 10 feet.  This is about +/-1.4 degrees.

Hey I sunk a 24 foot putt today!  Not on a practice green, but on an actual got course, which was definitely not flat.  Never done that before.  I was not trying to sink it.  I visualized the line and lined up the ball.  My goal was to leave the ball 3 feet from the hole.  Instead it when in.  I used a 24" backswing.  Someone told me once 1" for every foot, which I use on longer putts.

Now I need to work on reading the green.

[Golfingdad]

2 minutes ago, Howling Coyote said:

I used a 24" backswing.  Someone told me once 1" for every foot, which I use on longer putts.

It is always good to have some kind of measurement for length of backswing and measure everything else off of that.  Just remember that, obviously, your friends theory is linked to the speed of the greens at your course.  But you have a good baseline for when you get to a new course and find the greens a bit faster or slower, all you have to do is figure out how much different that backswing is for whichever common putt you choose (I would probably go with a 15 footer) and that will give you a new baseline for that day.

[iacas]

2 hours ago, Howling Coyote said:

Brandt Snedeker, pops the ball with almost no follow through.

As I mentioned above… his stroke looks just like the "good" or "excellent" strokes I showed, they're just squished left to right - his stroke is faster and thus shorter than most, but he still hits the ball at or just after peak speed.

2 hours ago, Howling Coyote said:

If I go to a flat indoor practice green (like Golf Smith) and hit from 5 feet (60 in).  Without follow-through there is almost a uniform scattering from about 4 in left of the hole to 4 inches right with some balls going into the hole.  This +/- 4 inches translates into +/-3.8 degrees of error on the putter face, that can never be eliminated.  Looking down at the putter +/-3.8 degrees can not be seen.  I can maybe see a 5 degree twist in the putter face.

Why would you want to putt with no follow-through? That makes no sense.

I have to assume what you're doing is not what you're describing. No good putters have anything even remotely described as "without follow-through."

Putting is not that hard, but I wonder if you're not making it out to be much harder than it is.

[inthehole]

11 hours ago, iacas said:

 

I have to assume what you're doing is not what you're describing. No good putters have anything even remotely described as "without follow-through."

I'm guessing what he meant is that there's a trend today among pro's we see on TV to take a far longer back swing than follow through swing.   Spieth & Rory are good examples - they take a typical back swing, but stop the putting stroke a few inches past the ball - not much of a follow through at all.   It's very pronounced - I've tried it & it feels so strange to abbreviate the follow through like they do.  

Erik - can you explain why so many pro's seem to intentionally abbreviate their follow throughs ?

[iacas]

1 hour ago, inthehole said:

I'm guessing what he meant is that there's a trend today among pro's we see on TV to take a far longer back swing than follow through swing.   Spieth & Rory are good examples - they take a typical back swing, but stop the putting stroke a few inches past the ball - not much of a follow through at all.   It's very pronounced - I've tried it & it feels so strange to abbreviate the follow through like they do.  

Erik - can you explain why so many pro's seem to intentionally abbreviate their follow throughs ?

I don't think what you're describing is accurate.

Consider that if you had a pure pendulum stroke (or what I'd call a "magnified pendulum"), the follow-through length would exactly match the backswing length. Yes?

Yet on the downswing and follow-through, two things cause it to be shorter:

• Air resistance. Minimal.
• The putter hits the ball.

The latter has a huge effect on how far through the ball the putter will go. It takes several inches off the forward travel of the putter head.

[inthehole]

Yeah, I guess you're right - it just looks like some of the top pro's have more of an abbreviated follow through compared to the rest of the guys - maybe it's just an illusion

[Marty2019]

I am wondering if there is any way to practice putting other than just going to the practice green and putting.  

I'm going out there today, and my plan is to spend time practicing 6 footers, and trying to diagnose why I miss so many short putts.   My problem isn't green reading, it's pulling or pushing the putt.   I'm going to find a level 6 foot stretch of green, set up a gate using 2 tees, and putt through the gate from 6 feet away, with the intent of leaving the ball 18 inches beyond the gate. 

 

Practicing can't hurt, but I am wondering, is there a thread already about the most effective way to practice putting?  

Edited March 1, 2016 by Marty2019

[dchoye]

I like Rory's putting motion. Seems like he "taps" his putts.  

Sometimes have a problem with my putting where I get this "rebound" acceleration at the very end on my stroke (think Greg Norman at end of his swing) 

I think it's good to have a SAM putting lab done and try to get an bell shape shape curve like the above velocity graphs  I think this gives the smoothest delivery into the ball and then figure out the fine details with a teaching pro.  

[iacas]

6 hours ago, Marty2019 said:

I am wondering if there is any way to practice putting other than just going to the practice green and putting.

There are a ton of ways.

For most of them, you want to work on the three things all great putters do well:

6 hours ago, Marty2019 said:

Practicing can't hurt, but I am wondering, is there a thread already about the most effective way to practice putting?

I don't know that there is any one specific thread, but there are threads on how to practice putting.

[paininthenuts]

On 2/16/2016 at 10:15 PM, Howling Coyote said:

I am terrible at putting.  At 5 feet I have no confidence, preferring to hit the ball 4 feet (short of the hole) so that the last putt is less than 2 feet.  Now the greens where I play can be pretty nasty.  If one has a 5 ft putt, just going 1 foot past the hole can cause the ball to roll the other way and you could find yourself with a longer putt.  But I have estimated that I could shave 6-7 strokes off my score if I could only putt better.

I have no trouble with distance control, except really long putts.  My problem is the ball often does not follow the line I wanted it to follow.  My stroke path appears to be the problem.

So I am looking for help.  What could I do to improve my putting?

 

 

 

I haven't been playing long, but I am a reasonable putter. That said, I have been going through a bad patch, and haven't owned a putter I feel confident with. I just invested in a used Odyssey White Ice Teron putter, and although it hasn't been out on the course yet, the feel of the club in my hands is a million miles away from what I have been using. I am also going to experiment with focusing on the hole from short distances. There are mixed opinions on this, but it's worth a go.