Leave the Flagstick In (and Tend it Too)

[iacas]

3 hours ago, dennyjones said:

Am I to understand that you can't ask them to stand on the other side of the hole when tending the flag?

That's not what that says.

It says you can't ask them to stand somewhere specific so that you can aim at them.

[dennyjones]

thanks for helping me understand.  

[Golfingdad]

Flagstick saved Garrigus a stroke, maybe 2, here:

 

[iacas]

It's because of dumb commentary like this, btw, that a lot of people think the flagstick can hurt you.

Because the new rules for 2019 still (stupidly, IMO) include no penalty for striking the flagstick with the ball for a stroke made on the putting green, here are some things I consider fact based on fairly extensive testing:

• The flagstick can only ever hurt you on two occasions:
  • When it's windy and the flagstick is rattling around in the hole.
  • When it's leaning toward you so much that a ball won't fit between it and the hole.
• For a ball rolling up to about 3' past the hole (flat ground, stimp ~10.5), the flagstick neither helps nor hurts. This is right around the capture speed for a ball just ticking the edge of the flagstick, too - so balls either spin out or stay in based on tiny differences - catching a little bit of a different bump or dip in part of the hole, a little more or less speed, etc.
• For a ball rolling at more than 3' past, the flagstick helps you. The more the ball would roll past, the more it helps you.

In other words, if you're 100% sure that you're going to hit the ball with good speed, take the flagstick out if you want. It doesn't make much of a difference. That means if you're putting from 10' and you're going to have good speed, go for it. But if you're not confident your speed will be within about 2-3', leave it in - it can only help you on the whole.

People have had balls hit the flagstick - Tiger did earlier in the round, and the ball popped back and sat on the lip - but the ball was "rocketing" by the hole and would not have gone in anyway. Best case it would have hit the back of the hole and popped up and sat a foot behind the back edge. Worst case it catches the back edge only slightly and rolls 3+ feet away. Instead Tiger had the shortest tap-in you can imagine.

Anyway people have had the ball hit the flagstick and they THINK they got robbed, and occasionally and very, very, very rarely that could happen. But on the whole, they're often wrong: the flagstick kept the ball significantly closer to the hole than it would have finished otherwise.

The video above is a whole other beast. The ball didn't hit the flagstick at all. Had the flagstick been leaning slightly to the left, it may have ticked the flagstick… and helped the ball go in the hole. But because a few million people may have heard this, the idea that the flagstick hurt someone is reinforced. Incorrectly.

Do the math.

A ball is 1.68" wide. The hole is 4.25". Divide the hole in half and you'll find that between the ball and the center of the hole, a flagstick would have to be 0.445" in radius to contact the ball when the ball is completely within the hole. Most flagsticks are 0.5" - or 0.25" radius - at the hole height. That leaves a gap of almost 0.2" between the ball (when completely in the hole) and the flagstick. I've never seen a flagstick that's anywhere near almost 0.9" thick at the base.

In other words - unless the flagstick is leaning severely - a ball that never even gets completely within the outer diameter of the hole can't hit the flagstick. If any part of the ball is outside that 4.25" circle, or even within about 0.2" of the edge of that circle, it can't touch the flagstick.

 

Had the ball in that video struck the flagstick, it may have gone in, or stayed closer. The result would have been better.

[billchao]

@iacas, isn't there some basic physics involved, like a ball that hits a flagstick is going to have less energy after the collision than it originally had? So wouldn't it theoretically end up, barring some freak occurrence, closer to the hole in most situations?

I mean yea, you can say a ball rolling uphill that hits a stick and ends up rolling downhill instead might end up farther away from the hole than if the stick wasn't there at all, but that's gotta be pretty rare.

[iacas]

6 minutes ago, billchao said:

@iacas, isn't there some basic physics involved, like a ball that hits a flagstick is going to have less energy after the collision than it originally had? So wouldn't it theoretically end up, barring some freak occurrence, closer to the hole in most situations?

Yes, and I've made that point a few times in this topic, IIRC.

That balances against the reduction in distance and thus time for the ball to fall into the hole. At low speeds there's roughly no impact or effect, and at higher speeds it keeps the ball "closer" but some people think it kept the ball OUT entirely.

6 minutes ago, billchao said:

I mean yea, you can say a ball rolling uphill that hits a stick and ends up rolling downhill instead might end up farther away from the hole than if the stick wasn't there at all, but that's gotta be pretty rare.

That'd have to be a heck of a steep slope.

[rehmwa]

6 hours ago, iacas said:

It's because of dumb commentary like this, btw, that a lot of people think the flagstick can hurt you

That REALLY stood out while watching the tournament.  The ball didn't even come close to touching the stick but he kept on it anyway.  Dechambeau left the stick in for a putt (or was it a chip) from the fringe......and the announcers were apoplectec about it... 

I think there was one shot I've seen that hit the stick and I thought caused the ball to come out (dead center and it just bounced back).  And it was this weekend in Arnie's tourney - wish I could remember where and who...

Edited March 20, 2018 by rehmwa

[billchao]

21 minutes ago, iacas said:

Yes, and I've made that point a few times in this topic, IIRC.

Probably. I haven't read through the thread in a while 

21 minutes ago, iacas said:

That balances against the reduction in distance and thus time for the ball to fall into the hole. At low speeds there's roughly no impact or effect, and at higher speeds it keeps the ball "closer" but some people think it kept the ball OUT entirely.

I've seen golf balls hit the flagstick several feet off the ground and drop straight down. How people can think the stick being in the hole isn't an advantage (or can even be detrimental) is beyond me.

21 minutes ago, iacas said:

That'd have to be a heck of a steep slope.

I didn't know if it was realistic. I just thought of a situation where it could be possible.

16 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

That REALLY stood out while watching the tournament.  The ball didn't even come close to touching the stick but he kept on it anyway.  Dechambeau left the stick in for a putt (or was it a chip) from the fringe......and the announcers were apoplectec about it...

The announcers think AimPoint is voodoo mumbo jumbo. I don't really care what they get indignant about anymore.

[Golfingdad]

Are we suggesting here in this thread that the above putt will go over the top of the hole if the flagstick is not there?  If so, I have a really hard time being on board with that because it's not moving very fast.

(4:35 if my link doesn't work properly)

[Piz]

Just one more skirmish in the age-old battle between empirical data and folk lore.  

[billchao]

33 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Are we suggesting here in this thread that the above putt will go over the top of the hole if the flagstick is not there?  If so, I have a really hard time being on board with that because it's not moving very fast.

(4:35 if my link doesn't work properly)

That putt looked like it was going to roll 6' past the hole IMO. I don't know what it would have done had the stick not been in, but it looks faster to me than it does to you, I think.

[rehmwa]

1 hour ago, billchao said:

The announcers think AimPoint is voodoo mumbo jumbo. I don't really care what they get indignant about anymore.

Player to Caddie "How far do you have to the front of the green?"

Announcer "OOOOH, Player A is some kind of new age mechanical player analyzing to the nth degree.....In my day we closed our eyes and grabbed a random club and played by FEEL!  These kids don't know REAL GOLF (TM)"

Edited March 20, 2018 by rehmwa

[onthehunt526]

So @iacas, I am assuming you are okay with leaving the flagstick in under the 2019 rules for say a 30' putt. 

It grinds my gears when I am on the fringe in a tournament and everyone else is on the green, and I have a putter in my hand, auto pull the flagstick. I politely ask them to return the flagstick because I'm off the green. If I'm 1 inch off of the green, I don't care if I'm 12 feet from the hole, or 60 feet from the hole, the pin stays in. I've rattled a couple off of the flagstick. "Oh, you should've taken it out, the flagstick got in the way." I reply. "No, it didn't, I hit it too hard." If you hit a putt with the proper capture speed at the hole even with the flagstick in, the ball will still go in the hole.

[rehmwa]

1 minute ago, billchao said:

That putt looked like it was going to roll 6' past the hole IMO. I don't know what it would have done had the stick not been in, but it looks faster to me than it does to you, I think.

THAT's the one!!  I think that is the "exception to the rule" - dead center and would have sunk.  IMO - without the flag, probably it falls in and stays in.

[Golfingdad]

2 minutes ago, billchao said:

That putt looked like it was going to roll 6' past the hole IMO. I don't know what it would have done had the stick not been in, but it looks faster to me than it does to you, I think.

You mean 6' past the hole IF he missed the hole.  Surely, you don't think that it would have gone 6' past the hole on the line it was on?

 

2 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

Player to Caddie "How far do you have to the front of the green?"

Announcer "OOOOH, Player A is some kind of new age mechanical player analyzing to the nth degree.....I my day we closed our eyes and grabbed a random club and played by FEEL!  These kids don't know REAL GOLF (TM)"

Wow, that is a real good parody of pretty much everything they said whenever Bryson did anything this weekend.

[rehmwa]

7 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

You mean 6' past the hole IF he missed the hole.  Surely, you don't think that it would have gone 6' past the hole on the line it was on?

 

Wow, that is a real good parody of pretty much everything they said whenever Bryson did anything this weekend.

Thanks, Bryson needs to speed up.  But it's silly to think he's any different than the other players that have contours maps, distance charts, and an idea of how much to swing each club to refine the distance.  And he's silly to think he's unique also.  he just made the mistake of calling it a science and a bunch of purists got their panties in a wad....  Did I mention he's still too slow also (collegiate golf...sigh)

 

as an aside, the kid's approach isn't even 'science' based.  It's statistically based (prediction, reduction of variation, etc).   everyone with some level of predictability does it, the best eventually do it unconsciously

Edited March 20, 2018 by rehmwa

[billchao]

27 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

Player to Caddie "How far do you have to the front of the green?"

Announcer "OOOOH, Player A is some kind of new age mechanical player analyzing to the nth degree.....I my day we closed our eyes and grabbed a random club and played by FEEL!  These kids don't know REAL GOLF (TM)"

Just wait until they allow DMDs. 

24 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

You mean 6' past the hole IF he missed the hole.  Surely, you don't think that it would have gone 6' past the hole on the line it was on?

I was strictly talking about the speed, yea.

6' past the hole isn't exactly the ideal capture speed. Does it hit the back of the cup and drop? Does it ring around the hole and pop out? Does it skip right over the hole? I don't know. I'm not going to assume one outcome or another because I don't know, and assumptions are why people think the flagstick being in is bad in the first place.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Golfingdad said:

Are we suggesting here in this thread that the above putt will go over the top of the hole if the flagstick is not there?  If so, I have a really hard time being on board with that because it's not moving very fast.

(4:35 if my link doesn't work properly)

Your eyes are lying to you. That ball is moving pretty fast. I believe it would have missed.