USGA/R&A Re-Evaluating All Rules, Top to Bottom

[Lihu]

55 minutes ago, Wansteadimp said:

I'd like to see a change in the relief available from a wrong putting green.

Currently you only get relief for where the ball lies, not swing or stance. This can lead to a player standing on a green playing at a ball off the green, making a full swing and leaving nice swirly spike marks on the green which is obviously not ideal.

Just give relief for the stance as well.

Isn't this covered in the definition of "nearest point of relief"?

 

Quote

25-3. Wrong Putting Green

a. Interference

Interference by a wrong putting green occurs when a ball is on the wrong putting green.

Interference to a player's stance or the area of his intended swing is not, of itself, interference under this Rule.

b. Relief

If a player's ball lies on a wrong putting green, he must not play the ball as it lies. He must take relief, without penalty, as follows:

The player must lift the ball and drop it within one club-length of and not nearer the hole than the nearest point of relief. The nearest point of relief must not be in a hazard or on a putting green. When dropping the ball within one club-length of the nearest point of relief, the ball must first strike a part of the course at a spot that avoids interference by the wrong putting green and is not in a hazard and not on a putting green. The ball may be cleaned when lifted under this Rule.

 

Quote

Nearest Point of Relief

The "nearest point of relief" is the reference point for taking relief without penalty from interference by an immovable obstruction (Rule 24-2), an abnormal ground condition (Rule 25-1) or a wrong putting green (Rule 25-3).

It is the point on the course nearest to where the ball lies:

(i)

that is not nearer the hole, and

(ii)

where, if the ball were so positioned, no interference by the condition from which relief is sought would exist for the stroke the player would have made from the original position if the condition were not there.

Note: In order to determine the nearest point of relief accurately, the player should use the club with which he would have made his next stroke if the condition were not there to simulate the address position, direction of play and swing for such a stroke.

 

[pumaAttack]

Make a lost ball a one-stroke penalty with a drop from the area most likely to contain the golf ball. 

Being penalized stroke and distance for hitting into a pile of leafs is ridiculous. 

[Wansteadimp]

22 minutes ago, DrvFrShow said:

I agree.

Yes that's the way it's written, but I would always take relief for the stance to care for the course in the event that such a thing happens. Then again, this only matters in tournaments. Even playing with your friends and keeping your handicap common sense says you shouldn't stand on the green and mess it up like that. Especially since spike marks can't be repaired, and you could potentially make someone very upset if their ball lands with your swirly spike marks in between their ball and the hole.

Absolutely, but if you're playing in a competition then you have to take relief under the rules not what makes most sense for the course.

Obviously you can repair your spike marks before you leave the green as you can after you have putted out. Actually, I'm not sure if this is obvious, I'd be happy doing it if I'd played the hole associated with the wrong putting green already because it wouldn't assist my play of the hole. If I'd yet to play the hole that may not be the case, I'd guess because I'm not playing the hole yet I don't have a line of putt so I should be okay, any ideas what the ruling would be, I've had a brief scan of the decisions but couldn't find anything?

10 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Isn't this covered in the definition of "nearest point of relief"?

25-3. Wrong Putting Green

a. Interference

Interference by a wrong putting green occurs when a ball is on thewrong putting green.

Interference to a player's stance or the area of his intended swing is not, of itself, interference under this Rule.

b. Relief

If a player's ball lies on a wrong putting green, he must not play the ball as it lies. He must take relief, without penalty, as follows:

The player must lift the ball and drop it within one club-length of and not nearer the hole than the nearest point of relief. Thenearest point of relief must not be in a hazard or on a putting green. When dropping the ball within one club-length of thenearest point of relief, the ball must first strike a part of the courseat a spot that avoids interference by the wrong putting green and is not in a hazard and not on a putting green. The ball may be cleaned when lifted under this Rule.

Nearest Point of Relief

The "nearest point of relief" is the reference point for taking relief without penalty from interference by an immovable obstruction(Rule 24-2), an abnormal ground condition (Rule 25-1) or a wrong putting green (Rule 25-3).

It is the point on the course nearest to where the ball lies:

(i)

that is not nearer the hole, and

(ii)

where, if the ball were so positioned, no interference by the condition from which relief is sought would exist for the stroke the player would have made from the original position if the condition were not there.

Note: In order to determine the nearest point of relief accurately, the player should use the club with which he would have made his next stroke if the condition were not there to simulate the addressposition, direction of play and swing for such a stroke.

 

 

2 things,

First, Clause (ii) of the definition of nearest point of relief talks about the condition you are taking relief from, which in this case is the ball lying on the green (not your stance), so the nearest point will be the spot where the whole of the ball is no longer on the green which isn't closer to the hole (the one you're playing I have seen some people try this to the one on the wrong putting green), then you take a club length from there. So there are scenarios where you could end up stood on the wrong putting green to play your ball.

Second, you would get no relief if your ball was never on the green but you had to stand on the green to take your shot.

[Lihu]

23 minutes ago, Wansteadimp said:

2 things,

First, Clause (ii) of the definition of nearest point of relief talks about the condition you are taking relief from, which in this case is the ball lying on the green (not your stance), so the nearest point will be the spot where the whole of the ball is no longer on the green which isn't closer to the hole (the one you're playing I have seen some people try this to the one on the wrong putting green), then you take a club length from there. So there are scenarios where you could end up stood on the wrong putting green to play your ball.

Second, you would get no relief if your ball was never on the green but you had to stand on the green to take your shot.

It seems like the nearest point of relief takes your stance into consideration.

The way I looked at it is like a cart path obstruction. It seems like your stance at address must not be on the obstruction (cart path, green or the like).

 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, DrvFrShow said:

Yes that's the way it's written, but I would always take relief for the stance to care for the course in the event that such a thing happens. Then again, this only matters in tournaments. Even playing with your friends and keeping your handicap common sense says you shouldn't stand on the green and mess it up like that. Especially since spike marks can't be repaired, and you could potentially make someone very upset if their ball lands with your swirly spike marks in between their ball and the hole.

You can repair your own spike marks on a wrong putting green if you make a stroke. Heck, if you scuff your feet you can repair your own spike marks on your own putting green in many cases.

1 hour ago, pumaAttack said:

Make a lost ball a one-stroke penalty with a drop from the area most likely to contain the golf ball. 

Being penalized stroke and distance for hitting into a pile of leafs is ridiculous. 

Highly unlikely to ever happen. Goes directly against one of the very basic principles of the game.

5 minutes ago, Lihu said:

It seems like the nearest point of relief takes your stance into consideration.

You don't get relief for your stance on a wrong putting green. So the nearest point is basically just onto the fringe.

[natureboy]

2 hours ago, Big Lex said:

A tournament, or a club, ANY entity, could decide at any point that they wanted a round or a tournament or whatever to be played with either the short or the long ball. Maybe some pro events would be with the shorter ball....events on shorter courses, maybe.

Interesting. It's possible that this wouldn't be too much of a headache since you would have daily adjusted course ratings under the new universal computerized HCP system and that might be able to account for the different ball used on the day?

2 hours ago, Big Lex said:

..and others would use the longer ball. It wouldn't be that much to ask the pros to adjust to both. As I mentioned in another post, years ago many pros did just this, because they had to be able to play both the US ball and the British little ball. 

But they did see some benefit in standardizing and adopting one standard.

[DrvFrShow]

Of course you can repair your own spike marks, but not someone elses. I just don't want to damage the green in any way if I can avoid it.

[iacas]

1 minute ago, DrvFrShow said:

Of course you can repair your own spike marks, but not someone elses. I just don't want to damage the green in any way if I can avoid it.

You can repair someone else's… sometimes. And the odds of spike marks being on the edge of the green but still on your line are pretty slim.

Plus, I've played from the putting green (my stance only, of course) and didn't rip it up, and that was back when we had metal spikes.

That said, I don't see much downside in giving relief for your stance on the putting green, either, given the more violent nature of a full swing over a chip or a putt.

[Lihu]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

You don't get relief for your stance on a wrong putting green. So the nearest point is basically just onto the fringe.

Oh yeah, there's a fringe too, that's not the green. Thanks.

[pumaAttack]

6 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Oh yeah, there's a fringe too, that's not the green. Thanks.

It would be a fringe benefit.

[Lihu]

Just now, pumaAttack said:

It would be a fringe benefit.

But unfortunately, in this case you need to play off the fringe possibly standing on the putting surface.

Being on the wrong green only happened to me once anyway. I drove the wrong green once (pulled it longer than usual too), and took relief just onto the fringe wondering if it was the correct thing to do. As luck would have it my feet were in the rough just outside the fringe. Luck proved to be correct once again. Definitely a "fringe benefit".

[Rulesman]

You can have a local rule that includes the fringe in the putting green for the purpose of this rule

[Fourputt]

4 hours ago, Wansteadimp said:

I'd like to see a change in the relief available from a wrong putting green.

Currently you only get relief for where the ball lies, not swing or stance. This can lead to a player standing on a green playing at a ball off the green, making a full swing and leaving nice swirly spike marks on the green which is obviously not ideal.

Just give relief for the stance as well.

The negative for this is that it would often mean that the player is forced to drop in deep rough.  Since it requires mandatory relief, they give the player a break and allow him to drop on the frog hair, even if that means that he is standing on the green.

@Big Lex - I played Titleist Tour 100 balata for quite a few years, and I was as long as anyone I played with, regardless of the type of ball they played.  Modern balls have never been as playable for me as those old balatas, but I do appreciate the greater durability of the urethane cover.  

[Lihu]

8 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

You can have a local rule that includes the fringe in the putting green for the purpose of this rule

Can you generally over ride the local rule with the general rule? Or does the local rule supercede all others for the purposes of preserving the course?

https://www.usga.org/RulesFAQ/rules_answer.asp?FAQidx=105&Rule=25

[Rulesman]

33-8/33 - Local Rule Prohibiting Dropping on Apron When Ball on Wrong Putting Green

Q.Balls from the 13th tee frequently come to rest on the 15th green, and the point of nearest relief under Rule 25-3 is the closely mown apron of the green. Much damage is being caused to this apron. May the Committee make a Local Rule requiring that a ball be dropped not only clear of the putting surface but also clear of the apron of this green?

A.Yes. The following wording for a Local Rule is suggested:

"For the purpose of Rule 25-3, the putting green of the 15th hole includes the apron surrounding the green."

If a local rule is one authorised by the RBs then it in effect overrides or supplements the substantive rule

33-8. Local Rules

a. Policy

The Committee may establish Local Rules for local abnormal conditions if they are consistent with the policy set forth in Appendix I.

b. Waiving or Modifying a Rule

A Rule of Golf must not be waived by a Local Rule. However, if a Committee considers that local abnormal conditions interfere with the proper playing of the game to the extent that it is necessary to make a Local Rule that modifies the Rules of Golf, the Local Rule must be authorized by the USGA.

 

Edited March 29, 2016 by Rulesman

[Wansteadimp]

2 hours ago, Fourputt said:

The negative for this is that it would often mean that the player is forced to drop in deep rough.  Since it requires mandatory relief, they give the player a break and allow him to drop on the frog hair, even if that means that he is standing on the green.

@Big Lex - I played Titleist Tour 100 balata for quite a few years, and I was as long as anyone I played with, regardless of the type of ball they played.  Modern balls have never been as playable for me as those old balatas, but I do appreciate the greater durability of the urethane cover.  

I'd suggest that if you're sufficiently off line to be on the wrong putting green then you don't deserve breaks from the rules!

[Golfingdad]

6 hours ago, pumaAttack said:

Being penalized stroke and distance for hitting into a pile of leafs is ridiculous. 

Along the lines of what @Wansteadimp said, I'd suggest that if you hit your ball into a bunch of Toronto hockey players, then you don't deserve a break from the rules either! 

[pumaAttack]

1 hour ago, Golfingdad said:

Along the lines of what @Wansteadimp said, I'd suggest that if you hit your ball into a bunch of Toronto hockey players, then you don't deserve a break from the rules either! 

Haha!  Nice catch!

The good news is that I would get a lot of advice since they are frequent habitants of the golf course.