why so many tee boxes

[newtogolf]

3 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Right.  If you split up the flights enough to keep everyone really close in skill level then you risk having flights with one or two or three people in them.  In a perfect world, sure, everybody plays a bunch of others of the same skill level, but that's just not always possible.  It is what it is.

Exactly, I've seen some clubs have a B1, B2, C1, C2 but that's only if you have enough people to make the flight competitive.  

I like the A Flight method of everyone playing straight up but the clubs feel that would discourage too many people from entering if they weren't given strokes too.  If the tournament was today I'd be in the C Flight of my club and give up all the strokes so I'm motivated to drop my handicap to under 20 so I can qualify for the B Flight and get strokes.   

[Golfingdad]

2 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Take advantage of me, and I'll keep my secret dining places secret.  

Touche!  You found my weak spot. 

[DaveP043]

1 minute ago, Golfingdad said:

Touche!  You found my weak spot. 

I'm making some big assumptions, of course.  First that the Newport Cup will be coming to the Pinehurst area, and second, that I'll be invited.  But if it all comes true, I know a few nice places we can all visit.  

 

[Golfingdad]

6 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

Exactly, I've seen some clubs have a B1, B2, C1, C2 but that's only if you have enough people to make the flight competitive.  

I like the A Flight method of everyone playing straight up but the clubs feel that would discourage too many people from entering if they weren't given strokes too.  If the tournament was today I'd be in the C Flight of my club and give up all the strokes so I'm motivated to drop my handicap to under 20 so I can qualify for the B Flight and get strokes.   

I haven't played in any tournaments at my home course yet, but I get the impression that they wait until the entries are all in and then just cut off the flights wherever they fall to make the flights fairly even.  I don't know that for sure though.

The gcamtour flights are in stone, and so, sometimes, you will see flights in a 120 person tournament with only 4 players.  (Trophy is the same size though) 

1 minute ago, DaveP043 said:

I'm making some big assumptions, of course.  First that the Newport Cup will be coming to the Pinehurst area, and second, that I'll be invited.  But if it all comes true, I know a few nice places we can all visit.  

I'm making the same assumptions.

Is one of the "secret" places your kitchen??

[DaveP043]

7 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Is one of the "secret" places your kitchen??

Nah, I only have a condo there, and I hope its rented out when we're all there.  But I know a pretty good gastropub, a pizza joint with a wood-fired oven, a good sports bar, a barbecue joint at an airstrip, and a few really fine restaurants, not to mention the obligatory national big-box places.  Now if you're ever in Northern Virginia, I'll be happy to cook for ya.

 

[Dave2512]

I truly believe both sexes would enjoy golf more via multiple tees if courses would attempt to make it appealing.  I really like tee recommendations based on handicap but often see men ignore the recommendations at the courses we play that post it but to me they look miserable. I've never once thought hey look at that wuss up on the forward tees but I've often questioned the sanity of guys playing too far back and torturing themselves.

Honestly the only thing that keeps me from occasionally playing the most forward tees at the home course is I'd drive people nuts waiting on me. I'd have to wait for the group ahead to get way out there, they'd have to clear greens on some par 4's and every par 5 would be reachable.

[iacas]

4 hours ago, Dave2512 said:

Amateurs hit so many poor shots I doubt any ability related length is a significant advantage in anything but a scramble. I get paired with young 20 handicappers in league that can hit it past me but it's not a regular occurrence. They will still shoot a bad score.

And as you know, if they hit it shorter, they'd likely shoot even worse…

[Hardspoon]

1 hour ago, Dave2512 said:

Honestly the only thing that keeps me from occasionally playing the most forward tees at the home course is I'd drive people nuts waiting on me. I'd have to wait for the group ahead to get way out there, they'd have to clear greens on some par 4's and every par 5 would be reachable.

I've thought this when playing the forward tees (usually when playing with my friend's girlfriend)...but, it's just perception. You still finish just behind the next group, so you haven't really held anyone up.

But, I agree that I don't think the people behind you would think that way.

[Fourputt]

3 hours ago, newtogolf said:

If the tournament is flighted that's how it works.  The problem still doesn't get resolved because there's usually a 10 stroke range in handicaps within each flight.  C Flight in my club is 21-36, B Flight is 11-20, A Flight is 0-10.   A Flight plays from Championship Tees, rest play from Mens Tees.  

The "Club Championship" can only be won by the A Flight and handicaps are only used to determine your flight no strokes are given in it.  B and C Flights use handicap to determine flight and players are given strokes based on handicap.   Given there's a wide range of handicaps in each flight, you could still give up a significant number of strokes, especially in C Flight where a 21 handicap player competes against a 36.  

 

3 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

Right.  If you split up the flights enough to keep everyone really close in skill level then you risk having flights with one or two or three people in them.  In a perfect world, sure, everybody plays a bunch of others of the same skill level, but that's just not always possible.  It is what it is.

The Men's Club I play in has over 200 members, and most tournaments draw 120-140 entrants.  We usually have 6 flights in the individual stroke play events, and typically no more than a 3 stroke spread in any flight except the 6th flight.  Most of the time we play gross within flight, again except for the 6th flight which plays net because their handicaps range from the low 20's up to 36.  Each flight has 20-25 players - all flighting is managed with the GHIN tournament pairing software.

[Dave2512]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

And as you know, if they hit it shorter, they'd likely shoot even worse…

Sure but they have no reliable length. IME the higher the handicap the worse the variance is due to poor ball striking. The miss is less predicable and short is a  common consequence. 

[boogielicious]

14 hours ago, pumaAttack said:

Not really, not in match play. 

If your opponent eagles a hole you have to match that score.  You aren't just comparing scores you have to match them on each hole.

If you are a 22 handicap and your opponent, a 4 handicap, booms one down the middle leaving an easy chip to get up and down, you now have to change your approach.   There isn't 17 other holes to make up the strokes, there is only that one hole.

But if your opponent is the same skill level, your shots will be more closely related and that added pressure won't be there.

Tony, flip it the other way. Say you or I play a 22 HC. We're giving them a lot of strokes on certain tough holes. In match play, they know which holes they get strokes. It puts pressure on the better player. We are still playing the course, but need to play a stroke better on the tough holes. 

[Pete]

17 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

The USGA Handicap System has specific recommendations for competitions using different tees.  Surprisingly to me, so does the CONGU, which governs handicaps in the UK and Ireland.  Anyone interested can find it starting on Page 88 here:

http://www.congu.com/2016%20CONGU%20Manual%20-%20Final%20version.pdf

Thanks Dave. I was not aware of this at all. They must use these adjustments for mixed tournament over here. I have never been aware of a single gender tournament where different tees are used, but now I can see how it would be possible.

If two players have the same handicap, even if one can hit it 50 yards further from the tee than the other, they will always play the same tees.

I guess sometimes, a course (and in some cases a particular set of tees), will suit one player more than another, even when they have the same handicap. I like it when our club competitions are of the back tees and they are pushed right back, as that suits me more than some of the other players of the same handicap. When we use the short tees in winter, I have a disadvantage over another 5 hcp who is short off the tee but has a better wedge game than me.

I just see this as what golf is all about.

Also, we have 2 'divisions' (flights) max in our 150+ entry competitions, but the winner of the competition comes from either division. I like the sound of the US way of competing against players in the same flight with no shots given/taken.

[Fourputt]

4 hours ago, boogielicious said:

Tony, flip it the other way. Say you or I play a 22 HC. We're giving them a lot of strokes on certain tough holes. In match play, they know which holes they get strokes. It puts pressure on the better player. We are still playing the course, but need to play a stroke better on the tough holes. 

But as the better player, you are (or should be) more prepared to deal with that pressure too.  The 22 is more likely to screw up those more difficult holes in a big way.  

I've had it happen to me, on a hole where I got a stroke, I felt subconsciously that I didn't have to try as hard to win the hole, and the result was a total hack job.  I had to learn to keep my focus, regardless of whether I was giving or receiving, no matter if the hole was easy or difficult.

Good match play competitors have to learn how to play both the course and their opponent, whereas in stroke play you play the course and take whatever that gives you.  There is a match play skill in knowing when to attack and when to back off - when to attack your opponent and when to attack the course.  You may have to take risks on holes where you would never do it in stroke play. 

[DaveP043]

12 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

Good match play competitors have to learn how to play both the course and their opponent, whereas in stroke play you play the course and take whatever that gives you.  There is a match play skill in knowing when to attack and when to back off - when to attack your opponent and when to attack the course.  You may have to take risks on holes where you would never do it in stroke play. 

I absolutely agree that match play and stroke play are two different animals, and having your opponent right next to you can change your approach to specific shots or holes.  There's no question that experience helps a player understand match play situations, and I'd often bet on a more experienced player, whether he's the one giving strokes, or receiving them.  Personally, I prefer match play to stroke play.  I definitely hit my share of poor shots, but I feel like I get over a bad hole pretty quickly, and that's absolutely essential.  

Of course, by now we've wandered way off track from the original post.  If I remember right, it was about the number of tees available, and the foolhardiness of many of the people who went to the back tees without enough game to play comfortably there.

[pumaAttack]

5 hours ago, boogielicious said:

Tony, flip it the other way. Say you or I play a 22 HC. We're giving them a lot of strokes on certain tough holes. In match play, they know which holes they get strokes. It puts pressure on the better player. We are still playing the course, but need to play a stroke better on the tough holes. 

That's a good call Scott.  I guess it really depends on who you get matched with.  Basically you have to play your own game but keep an eye on what strokes you are gaining/losing to your opponent.  

[Dave2512]

1 hour ago, Fourputt said:

But as the better player, you are (or should be) more prepared to deal with that pressure too.  The 22 is more likely to screw up those more difficult holes in a big way.  

Exactly there is common sense component competing with a higher handicap player, the stats tell us we can expect them to pile up strokes. We remember what it was like to be there.