A Rules Riddle

[bkuehn1952]

I posted on this elsewhere.  If one saw the original post, maybe let everyone else have a crack at this first.  Perhaps this is easy but frankly I would have said one never gets to select which of 2 balls one wants to play.

 

Describe a situation where a player gets to select either of two balls as the ball in play and picks up the other.  Note that neither ball is OB.  Neither ball is in a bunker or other hazard.  This is not on the tee where you select a ball to tee and hit.  This is not part of a "Best Ball" or other team format.  This scenario is totally within the USGA/R&A Rules.

 

[Club Rat]

A two man scramble?

[bkuehn1952]

3 minutes ago, Club Rat said:

A two man scramble?

Good thought but I would consider that a team format and thus not eligible.

[DrvFrShow]

One's ball is in a questionable spot where rule 3-3 comes into effect. "Is it a GUR where one gets a drop? Or not?" Take a photo of the situation and proceed.

So one would proceed by dropping a ball at the NPR and playing that ball and playing the original ball through the green. The player holes out with the ball played from the original position in 4, and has an up and down with the one played from the NPR. The player picks up the second ball.

[Rulesman]

Decision 27/11 -  4

A player entitled to play a provisional ball from the tee plays it into the same area as his original ball. The balls have identical markings and the player cannot distinguish between them.

Situation 4:Both balls are found in bounds, whether in a playable or an unplayable lie, and (1) one ball is in a water hazard and the other is not or (2) both balls lie through the green or in a bunker.

Solution 4:One could argue that both balls are lost. However, it would be inequitable to require the player to return to the tee, playing 5, when the player has found both balls but does not know which is the original and which the provisional. Accordingly, the player must select one of the balls, treat it as his provisional ball and abandon the other.

[bkuehn1952]

1 hour ago, DrvFrShow said:

Not the situation I had in mind but not incorrect.

1 hour ago, Rulesman said:

Decision 27/11 -  4

A player entitled to play a provisional ball from the tee plays it into the same area as his original ball. The balls have identical markings and the player cannot distinguish between them.

Situation 4:Both balls are found in bounds, whether in a playable or an unplayable lie, and (1) one ball is in a water hazard and the other is not or (2) both balls lie through the green or in a bunker.

Solution 4:One could argue that both balls are lost. However, it would be inequitable to require the player to return to the tee, playing 5, when the player has found both balls but does not know which is the original and which the provisional. Accordingly, the player must select one of the balls, treat it as his provisional ball and abandon the other.

Spot on. The exact Decision I had in mind in my scenario.  Sort of amazing that one gets to pick the ball that one wants to play but other than that, it seems perfectly equitable.

[Fourputt]

14 minutes ago, bkuehn1952 said:

Spot on. The exact Decision I had in mind in my scenario.  Sort of amazing that one gets to pick the ball that one wants to play but other than that, it seems perfectly equitable.

Yes you get to pick the ball to play, but since it is costing you 2 strokes (stroke and distance), it's considered to be sufficient to negate any possible advantage gained from the choice. 

[Howling Coyote]

What if..

On a par 3 hole (say about 165 yards), your first shot goes way left and looks like it is lost in the woods, but actually hits a tree and kicks out and is hiding just long on the back side of the green (just a chip and putt away).  No one in your group can see this so you announce a provisional ball.  It flies straight and lands on the green just inches away from the hole.  Another player then accidentally hits your provisional ball into the hole.  Does that action count as a provisional ball played under rule 27b?  Or, assuming someone finds the first ball, do you play the first ball?

[SavvySwede]

51 minutes ago, Howling Coyote said:

What if..

On a par 3 hole (say about 165 yards), your first shot goes way left and looks like it is lost in the woods, but actually hits a tree and kicks out and is hiding just long on the back side of the green (just a chip and putt away).  No one in your group can see this so you announce a provisional ball.  It flies straight and lands on the green just inches away from the hole.  Another player then accidentally hits your provisional ball into the hole.  Does that action count as a provisional ball played under rule 27b?  Or, assuming someone finds the first ball, do you play the first ball?

If you find it you have to play it.

[Buckeyebowman]

Here's a situation I actually ran into. My buddy hit into a greenside bunker on a par 3, I hit my tee shot on the green. After marking my ball I look at my friend and see him staring into the bunker with a horrified expression on his face. He says, "Man, come here and look at this." I cross the green and look down in the bunker to see his ball lying up against the maggot riddled carcass of a dead squirrel with a cloud of blowflies buzzing around it!

Don't bother, I'll save you the effort. EEEEEYAAAUGHHUGGUGGUGUGUGGG!

My buddy asked what he should do, and of course, I couldn't resist skulling him a little. "Play the ball as it lies!" You can imagine the not safe for TV reply I got! Then I told him to just drop another ball, there was no way in Hell he was touching the original, in the bunker within 2 club lengths, and play from there.

I have no way of knowing what the Rules of Golf, or the Decisions might have to say about a situation like this, or if they even do. But as long as golf has been around, I can't imagine we're the first to encounter it. I thought about writing the USGA about it, but never got around to it. What say you?

[Club Rat]

3 hours ago, bkuehn1952 said:

Spot on. The exact Decision I had in mind in my scenario.

You did not indicate the player would receive a penalty in the OP?

 

[iacas]

13 minutes ago, Club Rat said:

You did not indicate the player would receive a penalty in the OP?

He didn't say there wasn't one, either.

There are also (IIRC) three things my rules workshop guy called a "Choosie." You get to choose between a provisional and the original ball.

[Club Rat]

2 minutes ago, iacas said:

You get to choose between a provisional and the original ball.

Aren't players required to be able to identify their ball at all times, regardless if  multi provisional are hit?

I'm assuming a "Choosie." is when a player can not identify between which is the original and provisional?

5 hours ago, Rulesman said:

Solution 4:One could argue that both balls are lost. However, it would be inequitable to require the player to return to the tee, playing 5,

Good point.

[Martyn W]

15 hours ago, bkuehn1952 said:

Here's a situation I actually ran into. My buddy hit into a greenside bunker on a par 3, I hit my tee shot on the green. After marking my ball I look at my friend and see him staring into the bunker with a horrified expression on his face. He says, "Man, come here and look at this." I cross the green and look down in the bunker to see his ball lying up against the maggot riddled carcass of a dead squirrel with a cloud of blowflies buzzing around it!

Don't bother, I'll save you the effort. EEEEEYAAAUGHHUGGUGGUGUGUGGG!

My buddy asked what he should do, and of course, I couldn't resist skulling him a little. "Play the ball as it lies!" You can imagine the not safe for TV reply I got! Then I told him to just drop another ball, there was no way in Hell he was touching the original, in the bunker within 2 club lengths, and play from there.

I have no way of knowing what the Rules of Golf, or the Decisions might have to say about a situation like this, or if they even do. But as long as golf has been around, I can't imagine we're the first to encounter it. I thought about writing the USGA about it, but never got around to it. What say you?

The squirrel is a Loose Impediment and therefore may not be moved. Dropping a ball within 2cl in the bunker, he proceeded under 28 (unplayable) correctly, incurring one PS. Rule 28 does allow a player to substitute a ball so there is no issue with not using the original ball.

[iacas]

On April 9, 2016 at 11:36 PM, Club Rat said:

Aren't players required to be able to identify their ball at all times, regardless if  multi provisional are hit?

That doesn't have anything to do with my post.

On April 9, 2016 at 11:36 PM, Club Rat said:

I'm assuming a "Choosie." is when a player can not identify between which is the original and provisional?

No. 27-2c/1.5 is one of the examples of a "Choosie."

[Asheville]

Erik what is the third "Choosie?" (We have D27/11 and the above, D27-2c/1.5.)

[bkuehn1952]

If the Local Rule, 5. Water Hazards - Playing Ball Provisionally Under Rule 26-1, is in effect, the player is allowed to choose between the provisional and the ball in the hazard, if playable.

 

[Asheville]

Perhaps there are five Choosies?

1) bkuehn's good find above,

2) the previous D27/11 of Erik's, and these three from R27-2b:

Exception: If it is known or virtually certain that the original ball, that has not been found, has been moved by an outside agency (Rule 18-1), or is in an obstruction (Rule 24-3) or an abnormal ground condition(Rule 25-1c), the player may proceed under the applicable Rule.