Can you really improve more than just a few strokes given enough time and proper practice?

[billchao]

16 hours ago, Lihu said:

So, I've often heard from people that once you've been playing a couple years that you will not really improve that much from that point on.

I don't believe that at all. Just this past year, I dropped 3 strokes in 15 rounds. If I played more, I'd be able to score lower more consistently because I'd be able to figure out how to score better with my current skillset.

As it is, I'm shaking off the rust pretty much every round and I'm still scoring better than I used to years before, simply because my technique has gotten better all around.

[krupa]

16 hours ago, Lihu said:

So, I've often heard from people that once you've been playing a couple years that you will not really improve that much from that point on. I've found this to be somewhat discouraging, and was wondering what the limitation really is?

I don't think this is true.  I think what is probably happening is that most golfers improve quickly to a certain point and then need to put in more work to see any improvement.  They don't put in the work, so their game just plateaus.  

[paininthenuts]

16 hours ago, Lihu said:

This assumes you have good instruction as well***.

So, I've often heard from people that once you've been playing a couple years that you will not really improve that much from that point on. I've found this to be somewhat discouraging, and was wondering what the limitation really is? Is it because you won't get a better swing from physical limitations? I am wondering if this is really the case. Some people with decent swings can hit the ball pretty far and still score like crap. Others with crappy swings, can still get the ball into the hole.

Is it some inherent drive to get the ball into the hole "no matter what"? What is it that differentiates someone who aggressively seeks the pin versus the rest of us?

 

 

***You can set the clock to zero once you have an effective instructor no matter how many years you've been playing, then not improve much more after 2 years of this good instruction.

This is a very good thread. There are several factors to be taken into account. Age, fitness, lessons, practice, and natural ability. I only started 7 months ago, and unfortunately I am 58, I drink to much beer, and have no natural ability at all. However, I do practice a lot, and I have had 4 lessons. Whilst I have got a little better, and now just about play to my handicap of 28, I don't think I will ever get a lower handicap because of the way the handicap system works. My pro/handicap secretary has told me that I will have to play 54 holes in competitions, and average 38 stableford points a round before my handicap is dropped by .4 . Now, I don't know if this is 100% right, but if it is, I really can't see things changing. Never mind, it does mean that I get to win the odd friendly game with my friends. 

[Shindig]

Yes;  you played with me when I was a 19 handicap, about eight years after first taking up golf.  A year and change later, I was a 13 handicap.  Mike, Erik, and Stephen (evolvr) helped me and I spent a good deal of time practicing.  

[DeadMan]

I think if you have good instruction and focus on your priority piece, then you can improve until you hit your physical limitation. And I have no idea where that point would be for most people - probably mid to low single digits.

In my case, I improved from about a 25 handicap to a 12 by going it on my own and with little instruction in about 3 years. I've had good instruction for about a year now, and I've gone from a 12 to a 9, without too much practice. I think I could get to a 7 this year without much practice. If I had more time to practice and play, I bet I could get down to around a 5 this year. I think I have the physical ability to get to near scratch, but it's more of a question of time. And I did a lot of this without real instruction.

So, I'd say the answer is yes - if you have good instruction and practice properly. The reason a lot of people can't improve more than that is because of poor instruction and bad practice.

[Lihu]

Good responses from everyone so far. Thanks.

I was also kind of wondering if an aggressive attitude contributes or is even required for good scores? Here is an interesting article regarding this particular subject.

[saevel25]

24 minutes ago, Lihu said:

I was also kind of wondering if an aggressive attitude contributes or is even required for good scores? Here is an interesting article regarding this particular subject.

I would not link aggressive behavior to success in golf. Honestly it's odd to even think their connected. That article has nothing to do with golf. 

[Lihu]

12 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

I would not link aggressive behavior to success in golf. Honestly it's odd to even think their connected. That article has nothing to do with golf. 

This is just a small part of the topic, and is getting a little bit off topic. However, just in reading random articles like the one above got me thinking if people with more of that pheromone might have a better chance of playing better golf?

For example, Ernie Els is about the most non-aggressive player I can think of on the Tour, and ended up 6 putting a hole recently. It seems like he lost something. He didn't look like he was under any kind of pressure or anything? He just kind of fumbled around the hole.

I suppose I'm also saying that a golfer with a good swing can just make bad game management decisions from complacency as well. Does this "attitude" or pheromone help one make better decisions through better focus and the sheer desire to break through a barrier?

[saevel25]

1 minute ago, Lihu said:

However, just in reading random articles like the one above got me thinking if people with more of that pheromone might have a better chance of playing better golf?

Umm, I don't think so. 

1 minute ago, Lihu said:

For example, Ernie Els is about the most non-aggressive player I can think of on the Tour, and ended up 6 putting a hole recently. It seems like he lost something. He didn't look like he was under any kind of pressure or anything? He just kind of fumbled around the hole.

This makes no sense to me. Everyone shows anger differently. You could tell he was aggravated by missing those putts. By the end of it I think he was just not caring if the ball got in the hole or not. In that regard I could say his internal anger distracted him from focusing. 

What did you want him to do, snap his putter over his knee? 

Ernie is also a 4 time Major winner. He has won 19 PGA tour events and 28 European Tour events. He's also 46 years old. Sometimes putting degrades for golfers as they get older. Look at Sam Sneed.

I don't think there is anything in that article that is at all relevant to golfing. Everyone has different personalities. Everyone reacts to stress in different ways. They each have to find their own way to maintain focus in tough situations. 

[Lihu]

10 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Umm, I don't think so. 

This makes no sense to me. Everyone shows anger differently. You could tell he was aggravated by missing those putts. By the end of it I think he was just not caring if the ball got in the hole or not. In that regard I could say his internal anger distracted him from focusing. 

What did you want him to do, snap his putter over his knee? 

Ernie is also a 4 time Major winner. He has won 19 PGA tour events and 28 European Tour events. He's also 46 years old. Sometimes putting degrades for golfers as they get older. Look at Sam Sneed.

I don't think there is anything in that article that is at all relevant to golfing. Everyone has different personalities. Everyone reacts to stress in different ways. They each have to find their own way to maintain focus in tough situations. 

That would be counter productive towards playing better, no?

I've only had exposure to high school sports, but there have been times where me and my team mates needed to push ourselves beyond our normal limits. I wonder if this pheromone has anything to do with it?

Breaking through a barrier in golf could be having a tough shot in front of you and focusing enough to overcome that barrier. If you have a complacent personality, you might not focus enough to do it. While if you have a more aggressive personality you could "force" yourself to focus better on the shot at hand.

I think there might possibly be some link between any sport and what was written in the article, but obviously there is no data supporting it at this time. The fact that there is a detectable pheromone for aggressiveness is where I hypothesize a potential link. For all I know it could be an entirely different pheromone?

These are just a few of the things I was thinking, but are now getting seriously off topic.

[pumaAttack]

I think it all comes down to what type of instruction you have and how determined you are.  

If you are practicing like hell but with the wrong techniques, you won't improve.
If you are getting great instruction but lack the desire to implement it, you won't improve.

[Lihu]

2 minutes ago, pumaAttack said:

I think it all comes down to what type of instruction you have and how determined you are.  

If you are practicing like hell but with the wrong techniques, you won't improve.
If you are getting great instruction but lack the desire to implement it, you won't improve.

What drives this? Do some people naturally have more potential to be more determined than others?

[pumaAttack]

2 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Are some people naturally more determined than others?

Yes, definitely.  People have different passions and interests.  Maybe some people like golfing but would rather spend the weekend fishing or camping or whatever.  If they get better at golf is not important to them.  

Then you have people, like us, who would rather golf all weekend.  

Edited April 14, 2016 by pumaAttack

[Abu3baid]

18 hours ago, Patch said:

My guess is that given enough time, the correct tools, and the correct instruction, a golfer will get as good as they are going to get.

For a few, that might be scratch or better. For others it would be higher single digits. For a bunch more it would be low double digits, and for the rest, higher double digits.

In my opinion, person's genetic profile dictates to them their ability tp perform anything for the better or the worse than anyone else. 

Or people who want to get better but don't have the time to spend on doing so.  ;)

[Lihu]

Just now, pumaAttack said:

Yes, definitely.  People have different passions and interests.  Maybe some people like golfing but would rather spend the weekend fishing or camping or whatever.  Whether they get better at golf is not important to them.  

Then you have people, like us, who would rather golf all weekend.  

Apparently, all day 7 days a week.

On a side note, I'm starting to get a little complacent. I'm starting to think 2 or 3 times a week is enough.

[GangGreen]

I can only speak for myself, but I don't believe there is a hard ceiling in terms of progress for those willing to put the time and practice in.  That doesn't necessarily mean I'll ever reach tour level at my age (although I can dream!) but I do believe there's no limit to one's ability to make incremental improvements over time, with the understanding that those improvements become harder and harder to achieve the better you get.  I often feel as though I'm running in place with my game and forever stuck in neutral until I step back and look at how I'm playing now (as awful as it still is) compared to only a year ago so there's still hope.

[Yukari]

17 hours ago, saevel25 said:

That is a load of BS. I was playing golf for 10 years at a 12-16 handicap. After getting lessons from Erik I've dropped to a 5  handicap. I see potential to get to scratch within the next year or so. 

The only limitation is your ability to take instruction and implement it properly. 

It's the inherent drive to get better. It's buying into the process of actually practicing with a purpose. I believe any golfer has the ability to improve. 

Is there diminishing returns, heck ya. The energy and effort to get close or better than scratch is astronomically higher than it was to go from double digit to single digit. Hey, I am a masochist when it comes to golf. I love the challenge. I love improving even if it is just a small amount. I like seeing my swing change from where it was. 

As long as I love the process I will keep improving. 

 

+1. 

Everyone can get better, but there is a limitation on how much better you can get. People who have "awful" swing yet score well are those that trust their swing and do NOT try to change from one swing to another. Those with "good swing" who score poorly are generally those that change their swing as soon as something goes wrong. It maybe a subtle change like a grip, slight different take away or what have you, but they always try different things to correct the previous error. 

My goal this year is to stick with my swing and stop tinkering with it. 

[saevel25]

28 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Do some people naturally have more potential to be more determined than others?

Depends on the person, the type of motivation, support structure and how they were brought up. You certainly have people with all the ability in the world, who think they are entitled, and they don't go anywhere. 

I do not believe that an aggressive pheromone or gene is linked to success. I wouldn't link aggressiveness with competitiveness.