Marking Ball On Green

[Wendy Dominick]

He was trying to mark the ball with a coin(or some small object) and accidentally moved the ball with his putter. There is absolutely no way that this is directly attributable to marking the ball. Penalty incurred. The Committee got it wrong.

[Dormie1360]

1 hour ago, Wendy Dominick said:

He was trying to mark the ball with a coin(or some small object) and accidentally moved the ball with his putter. There is absolutely no way that this is directly attributable to marking the ball. Penalty incurred. The Committee got it wrong.

Well that is a penalty.  I understood it as he was marking the ball with his putter.

[Groucho Valentine]

I guess in the letter of the rule, he should have been penalized. But theres some room for common sense application of the ball marking rule here. But ultimately, the committees decision is their decision. If they say its no penalty, then its not. 

[Fourputt]

2 hours ago, Groucho Valentine said:

I guess in the letter of the rule, he should have been penalized. But theres some room for common sense application of the ball marking rule here. But ultimately, the committees decision is their decision. If they say its no penalty, then its not. 

Not at all.  It was still a penalty, but the committee screwed up.  Just because they were wrong, it doesn't change the facts of the case.  A ruling isn't necessarily correct just because the committee says it is. 

Like OJ Simpson, even though the jury acquitted him, it didn't make him any less guilty of murder. 

[Lihu]

48 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

Not at all.  It was still a penalty, but the committee screwed up.  Just because they were wrong, it doesn't change the facts of the case.  A ruling isn't necessarily correct just because the committee says it is. 

Yeah, I was waiting for one of you rules guys to bring this up.

 

Quote

Like OJ Simpson, even though the jury acquitted him, it didn't make him any less guilty of murder. 

"If the glove don't fit, you must acquit."

[Martyn W]

3 hours ago, Groucho Valentine said:

But theres some room for common sense application of the ball marking rule here

No, there isn't.

[Gary Page]

On 13/06/2016 at 5:12 AM, Lihu said:

My first reaction is a penalty was incurred.

I read the entire thread after deciding and that makes the most sense. The dropping of the putter is only one means of moving the ball. I would extend the intention of the ruling to any action other than the act of marking the ball. Seems like there are many penalties on the green, and that's only one of many...

Your dad was happy taking the penalty that day. They should have left it at that.

So, that brings up another question. Can a committee change a score after a player has signed and turned in the scorecard without his permission?

They had his permission, and he agreed to the new ruling.  I am pretty sure any committee can reverse any decision before the closure of the competition.  Please not Tiger Woods in the Masters.  Signed for a card lower than what he actually scored, still got in, My Fathersigned for a higher score, so could never ever be DQ'd for it.  

I wasn't on the green when this happened, however I don't think it's clear cut the guy slipped and nudged the ball, while pretty much on his knees marking the ball.  I don't care what they rules say, that's attributable in my eyes.  He was actually marking it while he nudged the ball, so they've obviously agreed it was.  

He beat me in the Last 16, which I'm annoyed at.  He's off 5, I'm 0, so a shock win, however I think he's got a serious point to prove.  

One thing was, the whole committee and club have backed him on it, and anyone who is heard passing blame onto my father will be banned  This is a huge thing because A) it shows the committee are going to take the hit, and B) they respect my father as an honest player.  I love the fact our captain has said that, because it's something I didn't expect.

I love golf, but sometimes, it's far too complicated, and it's why people are put off by it.  Common sense is usually the best option.

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, Gary Page said:

I don't care what they rules say, that's attributable in my eyes.

It's not. It's not really relevant what your eyes tell you…

Really. There's a pretty clear decision on this, and what "directly attributable to the act" means. The putter is not involved in marking the ball, so it's not directly attributable. If your glasses fall off while you're bending over to mark the ball, it's a penalty. Doesn't matter what your eyes tell you.

2 minutes ago, Gary Page said:

One thing was, the whole committee and club have backed him on it, and anyone who is heard passing blame onto my father will be banned  This is a huge thing because A) it shows the committee are going to take the hit, and B) they respect my father as an honest player.  I love the fact our captain has said that, because it's something I didn't expect.

I love golf, but sometimes, it's far too complicated, and it's why people are put off by it.  Common sense is usually the best option.

This situation is not terribly complicated. He accidentally moved the ball and deserved a penalty. He applied the penalty, which is why nobody is or will judge your father negatively. The Committee, though, erred.

And I don't think that the rules complications are what stop people from playing golf - most people don't worry much about anything more than the most basic rules until they get well, well into golf.

[Gary Page]

On June 13, 2016 at 6:56 PM, Lihu said:

Yeah, I was waiting for one of you rules guys to bring this up.

"If the glove don't fit, you must acquit."

If you were on a golf course, and someone fell on their ball, maybe tripped over a log or something, would you call a penalty on them?  Would you be that old fashioned, pedantic enough to be willing to do that?  I know I wouldn't, the only time I'd call that on someone is if I felt it was blatant, or when playing in a match with a referee present.  

Anyone who says they would call it, are lying, because the majority wouldn't.  

P.S the committee has decided it was attributable, so they are right, that's the way it is, no one has cameras, no one has TV's, so it will always come down to common sense in the end.  It might be wrong, but it's the truth.  

On June 13, 2016 at 3:29 PM, Dormie1360 said:

Well that is a penalty.  I understood it as he was marking the ball with his putter.

Is't that the problem here?  Rule book allows marking with a putter, but not falling over and knocking your ball.  The putter sounds more risky to me mate.  

Next time I'll mark my ball with my finger and see what people say.  Rules are rules, but some are just too far for me.  

On 13/06/2016 at 7:42 AM, Rulesman said:

See Rule 34-1b

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-34,34-1

How was this done? 

Were the R&A just asked if the committee could rescind the penalty or did the R&A say there was no penalty?

It was reversed before the competition closed, this doesn't apply.  I believe and can't quote, the RANDA advised them they can reverse the penalty if they deem fit to do so.  They advised them on it, what they said I'm not sure on that.  

[iacas]

9 hours ago, Gary Page said:

If you were on a golf course, and someone fell on their ball, maybe tripped over a log or something, would you call a penalty on them?

No. They'd call it on themselves.

If I was playing against them (fellow competitor or match play), or if they were on my side, and didn't call it on themselves, I absolutely would.

9 hours ago, Gary Page said:

Would you be that old fashioned, pedantic enough to be willing to do that?

It is neither of those things. It's playing golf by the Rules of the game.

9 hours ago, Gary Page said:

Anyone who says they would call it, are lying, because the majority wouldn't.

I'm not lying.

9 hours ago, Gary Page said:

P.S the committee has decided it was attributable, so they are right, that's the way it is, no one has cameras, no one has TV's, so it will always come down to common sense in the end.  It might be wrong, but it's the truth.

The committee got it wrong, from what you've written. The original ruling (penalty) should have applied. Again, based on what you've written.

9 hours ago, Gary Page said:

Is't that the problem here?  Rule book allows marking with a putter, but not falling over and knocking your ball.  The putter sounds more risky to me mate.

No. What's the problem?

9 hours ago, Gary Page said:

Rules are rules, but some are just too far for me.  

If you want to make a general rules discussion on some of the rules, please start a new topic on this. This topic has been answered.

[Gary Page]

9 hours ago, iacas said:

It's not. It's not really relevant what your eyes tell you…

Really. There's a pretty clear decision on this, and what "directly attributable to the act" means. The putter is not involved in marking the ball, so it's not directly attributable. If your glasses fall off while you're bending over to mark the ball, it's a penalty. Doesn't matter what your eyes tell you.

This situation is not terribly complicated. He accidentally moved the ball and deserved a penalty. He applied the penalty, which is why nobody is or will judge your father negatively. The Committee, though, erred.

And I don't think that the rules complications are what stop people from playing golf - most people don't worry much about anything more than the most basic rules until they get well, well into golf.

 

9 hours ago, iacas said:

No. They'd call it on themselves.

If I was playing against them (fellow competitor or match play), or if they were on my side, and didn't call it on themselves, I absolutely would.

It is neither of those things. It's playing golf by the Rules of the game.

I'm not lying.

The committee got it wrong, from what you've written. The original ruling (penalty) should have applied. Again, based on what you've written.

No. What's the problem?

If you want to make a general rules discussion on some of the rules, please start a new topic on this. This topic has been answered.

I bet you are a delight to play with.  Rule book on ever time.  If someone played out of turn, I'd suspect you'd be the type to incur a penalty on them lol.  
 

9 hours ago, iacas said:

No. They'd call it on themselves.

If I was playing against them (fellow competitor or match play), or if they were on my side, and didn't call it on themselves, I absolutely would.

It is neither of those things. It's playing golf by the Rules of the game.

I'm not lying.

The committee got it wrong, from what you've written. The original ruling (penalty) should have applied. Again, based on what you've written.

No. What's the problem?

If you want to make a general rules discussion on some of the rules, please start a new topic on this. This topic has been answered.

You're not getting it are you?  Marking a ball with a putter is just stupid, why is it even allowed anyway?  It's not different from marking your all with your knob, it's still the same result lol.  To me that rule should just be a round object and nothing else.  Different argument all together.  Enjoy your day

[iacas]

Just now, Gary Page said:

I bet you are a delight to play with.  Rule book on ever time.  If someone played out of turn, I'd suspect you'd be the type to incur a penalty on them lol.  

@Gary Page, I'm quite pleasant to play with, and in a casual round, I don't care what you do.

And as I said, players that I am playing against would call the penalty on themselves.

And there's no penalty for playing out of turn. Even in match play, all I can do is make you replay the stroke (with no penalty).

Again, you have your answer in this thread. If you want to rail against the Rules of Golf in general, please start a new topic on it.

[Grinde6]

Just read this entire thread, and I don't know how it can be put any different...it was a penalty, and your father had it right, the committee botched their decision and got it wrong which is not your fathers fault.  As far as calling a penalty on someone if they tripped over a log or getting the rule book out goes...If I'm playing a casual rounds with some buddies, then no I'm not going to call them out on rules.  If I'm playing in a tournament (which your father was) and a playing partner of mine didn't call a penalty on themselves (most would) that I saw, you bet I'm calling them on it, its a tournament and it should be played by the Rules of Golf as written.  Silly or stupid as you think the rules of golf are, if you tee it up in a tournament you are essentially signing your name that you will play by the rules (all of them).

[colin007]

real quick question thats only slightly on topic, because i didnt want to start a whole new thread:

if im looking for my ball in the rough and accidentally kick it because the rough was deep, is there a penalty?  or do i just put it back to where i can best approximate it was?

[Missouri Swede]

27 minutes ago, colin007 said:

real quick question thats only slightly on topic, because i didnt want to start a whole new thread:

if im looking for my ball in the rough and accidentally kick it because the rough was deep, is there a penalty?  or do i just put it back to where i can best approximate it was?

Rule 18-2:

Quote

18-2. By Player, Partner, Caddie or Equipment 

Except as permitted by the Rules, when a player's ball is in play, if 

(i) the player, his partner or either of their caddies: 

•lifts or moves the ball, 

•touches it purposely (except with a club in the act of addressing the ball), or 

•causes the ball to move, or 

(ii) the equipment of the player or his partner causes the ball to move, the player incurs a penalty of one stroke.

If the ball is moved, it must be replaced, unless the movement of the ball occurs after the player has begun the stroke or the backward movement of the club for the stroke and the stroke is made. 

Under the Rules there is no penalty if a player accidentally causes his ball to move in the following circumstances: 

In searching for a ball covered by sand or in re-creating the lie of a ball that has been altered during such a process, in the replacement of loose impediments moved in a hazard while finding or identifying a ball, in probing for a ball lying in water in a water hazard or in searching for a ball in an obstruction or an abnormal ground condition - Rule 12-1

In repairing a hole plug or ball mark - Rule 16-1c

In measuring - Rule 18-6

In lifting a ball under a Rule - Rule 20-1

In placing or replacing a ball under a Rule - Rule 20-3a

In removing a loose impediment on the putting green - Rule 23-1

In removing movable obstructions - Rule 24-1

The situation you describe doesn't fall under any of the exceptions, so it's a 1-stroke penalty, and the ball must be replaced.

Different situation if the ball is moved by an opponent or a fellow-competitor (rules 18-3 and 18-4).  Maybe better to have them join in the search.