Looking for quality shots and swing over low scores

[Jeremie Boop]

7 hours ago, Dave2512 said:

No my response was to his that said the result of golf shots level the field, gives us a way to temporarily perform above our abilities.  can't dunk, can't throw etc. I am not using pro golf as the baseline that would be silly either way. 

 I am not saying I have an edge just being humble and I don't think many lesser skilled golfers, myself included accurately rate their "good" shots. If good is relative to current abilities it should come with reality, my good shot is just my infrequent good shot I won't use it to qualify my golfing ability or determine how much I enjoy my round. 

When good comes with a heathy dose of luck or happenstance I believe it's a faulty target. Score is our true measure of skill. There is no way to end around that. We minimize damage we don't chase good shots it's our only choice.

Nobody wants to hit bad shots. But we can't ignore the tally. If you, me the guy down the street shoots X it's a story of how well the ball was struck. I will never walk off the course and think I played well based on my perception of certain shots if the score disputes that.

One good shot doesn't often win a tournamet, more like never. It requires many good shots in succession. The finish line isn't vague. 

Hope my phone hasn't auto corrected me to idiocy, I broke my glasses and can't see shit. 

I think the difference in your perspective and mine is simply based on the fact that, right now, I know that my scores will tend to get worse before they get better because of the things I'm working on. Therefore, I am willing to accept a worse score on the card as long as I'm seeing progress in the number of better quality strikes and shots that end up as intended. When I was more focused on score, I was much more quick to abandon whatever I was working on if it hurt my scores even if it was going to help my swing in the long run. This is just the best mindset for me, I don't think someone who is more score-centric in their outlook is wrong at all. I also think you might self-depreciate a bit when it comes to your evaluation how many good shots you hit, though I could be wrong because I've never seen you play. Just as you assuming anyone else you've never seen play hardly ever hits good shots.

Just as a small idea of what I consider a good shot, based off of my 9 holes last night. Not a good score, +10 46, but I wasn't unhappy because I was able to hit some really good shots:

1st hole 271 yard drive in the left center of fairway with wind into and from the left. Mostly from the left.

4th hole 330 yard drive, just rolled off the left of the fairway. Wind mostly helping and a little from the left.

5th hole 313 yard drive, left center of fairway. Same wind as 4th hole.

8th hole 267 yard drive left side of fairway. Wind mostly into and a little off the right.

8th hole 240 yard second shot with 19* hybrid *went a bit long as wind died down a bit, so while it went long the strike and line was good*

There was nothing "lucky" or "happenstance" about these drives or the hybrid shot. They were well struck shots which had good trajectory and ball flight. The 300+ drives were helped by the wind, of course, but they didn't take huge bounces or hit sprinkler heads. Having only 5 good shots made me feel pretty good about the round because of what I am working on in my swing, and because I just started working on it. Now, if I'm only hitting about 5 good shots a month or so from now while working on this same piece, I probably won't walk off the course feeling good about that score. It's all relative.

[Groucho Valentine]

15 hours ago, 14ledo81 said:

Many times I would. Like I stated before, maybe it's because I can't shoot a "good" score.

If we played, I have no hope of beating you. I can, however, hit a couple of shots a round better..

You're never going to go low with that attitude! I like it when i skank the ball all over the place and still manage to shoot a good score. It feels like i stole from golfs cookie jar or something. 

[Lihu]

26 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

You're never going to go low with that attitude! I like it when i skank the ball all over the place and still manage to shoot a good score. It feels like i stole from golfs cookie jar or something. 

Or simply stuck it to the golfing gods.

[Groucho Valentine]

1 minute ago, Lihu said:

Or simply stuck it to the golfing gods.

I know right? 

I feel like this when i score well but hit the ball like shit..

[Lihu]

19 hours ago, WUTiger said:

It depends on how old you are. This discussion has come up with my senior's group this month.

Once you get much past 50, you have the swing you have, and simply try to maintain it. My most reliable swing is turning out to be a 3/4 swing, stop at the ear, and rotate through on balance if possible. Physical flaws start to limit the beauty of one's swing.

Some of the 60+ guys have less-than-pretty swings, but it's their swing and they sometimes shoot in the low 80s from about 6,000 yards. 

I thought about this for a while, and respectfully disagree that getting or having good swing mechanics depends upon age.

Age limits your distance, but not your swing mechanics. Look at all the champions tour players.

Many of the people I play with are older. They are not as inflexible as they or you seem to think. While you might never gain the strength you had in youth back you can still be flexible enough to swing with the proper mechanics.

One of my range mates is 78, and his swing looks just like that of a good younger player. He just doesn't hit as far, but still drives 200 yards. He videos his swing and uses it as feedback to continuously tune and improve his swing. His ball striking is pretty much perfect as can be seen by the tiny rusty spots on his club faces, and shoots to a 10HC only because of his distance limitations.

Another occasional partner is also over 75 and still plays in the men's group rather than the seniors division. He hits a lot farther, but not as consistent. Also roughly a 10HC, but IDK for sure.

[Dave2512]

2 hours ago, Jeremie Boop said:

I think the difference in your perspective and mine is simply based on the fact that, right now, I know that my scores will tend to get worse before they get better because of the things I'm working on. Therefore, I am willing to accept a worse score on the card as long as I'm seeing progress in the number of better quality strikes and shots that end up as intended. When I was more focused on score, I was much more quick to abandon whatever I was working on if it hurt my scores even if it was going to help my swing in the long run. This is just the best mindset for me, I don't think someone who is more score-centric in their outlook is wrong at all. I also think you might self-depreciate a bit when it comes to your evaluation how many good shots you hit, though I could be wrong because I've never seen you play. Just as you assuming anyone else you've never seen play hardly ever hits good shots.

Just as a small idea of what I consider a good shot, based off of my 9 holes last night. Not a good score, +10 46, but I wasn't unhappy because I was able to hit some really good shots:

1st hole 271 yard drive in the left center of fairway with wind into and from the left. Mostly from the left.

4th hole 330 yard drive, just rolled off the left of the fairway. Wind mostly helping and a little from the left.

5th hole 313 yard drive, left center of fairway. Same wind as 4th hole.

8th hole 267 yard drive left side of fairway. Wind mostly into and a little off the right.

8th hole 240 yard second shot with 19* hybrid *went a bit long as wind died down a bit, so while it went long the strike and line was good*

There was nothing "lucky" or "happenstance" about these drives or the hybrid shot. They were well struck shots which had good trajectory and ball flight. The 300+ drives were helped by the wind, of course, but they didn't take huge bounces or hit sprinkler heads. Having only 5 good shots made me feel pretty good about the round because of what I am working on in my swing, and because I just started working on it. Now, if I'm only hitting about 5 good shots a month or so from now while working on this same piece, I probably won't walk off the course feeling good about that score. It's all relative.

I don't really have perspective just don't think there is any separation between our ball striking and our scores, one leads to the other. I know my scores are going to vary, my last 20 typically has a spread of 8-12 strokes, and I know swing to swing my good rounds and bad rounds probably look similar. I always hit a variety of shots. When I edit my rounds in GG I try to see where I made mistakes and what I could have done better but I don't fixate on the score. When I don't follow a good shot with another I analyze it.

Typically when that happens a couple things cause it. I lose focus, meaning I was distracted and didn't rely on routine to make the best swing possible. Sometime that good shot ends up in a tricky lie, the courses I play aren't high end. We have bare spots, crab grass mounds and the rough can be nasty if they let it grow to save water or it's just better than I planned for and the long miss (approach) finds trouble. But most of the time it's simply it was a slightly worse miss than the previous shot but still half decent. I never think well my string of near perfect shots is over so this hole is doomed I try to recover. The best shots I often hit are the weird stuff, missed green and pitch it to 6". I expect to follow a good drive with a good approach because it's a good opportunity.

I get that people want to take something positive away from the course but think we should reflect on the rounds to see what kept that 46 from being a 40 or whatever. Our scores are relative to our current ability. The inability to capitalize on the better shots is indicative of our ball striking and the better shots the flip side of our inconsistency. We haven't done anything different and progress is slow. It was the same swing as the bad shot it just happened to contact the ball on a more favorable spot on the face, it's not inches different but centimeters maybe even millimeters different.

[DaveP043]

Quote

The Game of Golf consists of playing a ball with a club from the teeing ground into the hole by a stroke or successive strokes in accordance with the Rules.

This is the very first item under Rule 1 in the Rules of Golf.  Golf isn't a game of hitting quality shots, it consists of playing a ball from the tee into the hole in the fewest possible strokes.  It doesn't matter how good or bad the shots are, as long as the score is good.  Quality shots are a great tool, but only one of the tools.  Sure, I take satisfaction from each good shot, but at the end of the day its the overall score (or a win/lose in a match) that matters the most to me.  If I shoot a good score without hitting a solid drive, that means I've done most of the other stuff pretty well.  If I drive perfectly, and mis-hit most of my irons, I can still make a good score by scrambling.  I can putt poorly, but if I'm on or around the green on most holes, I can still have a good score.  Sometimes its really satisfying to shoot a good score without hitting many quality shots, because I've been able to overcome my mistakes.  It doesn't matter how, its how many.  

[krupa]

Is the polling system on this site capable of combining multiple questions?  It might be interesting to see a poll that combines a person's HC with whether they hit "quality" shots.  I would expect that the lower the index, the more score is important.  Higher indexes just want to hit the ball decently.  I would guess that I would take @DaveP043's "low quality" shots all day long.

[WUTiger]

1 hour ago, Lihu said:

... Age limits your distance, but not your swing mechanics. Look at all the champions tour players. ...

I'm not sure how far apart we really are.

The guys I'm talking about have good swing mechanics - they have a fairly consistent swing that hits the ball effectively - they just don't have a pretty swing.

When they get lessons, they tend to go to an older pro who can help them get shots back on line, not someone who will try to rebuild their swing to PGA tour specs.

[Lihu]

Just now, WUTiger said:

I'm not sure we're really in disagreement here.

The guys I'm talking about have good swing mechanics - they have a fairly consistent swing that hits the ball effectively - they just don't have a pretty swing.

When they get lessons, they tend to go to an older pro who can help them get shots back on line, not someone who will try to rebuild their swing to PGA tour specs.

Usually good swing mechanics makes the swing look pretty, but maybe that's just the way I see it?

[DaveP043]

1 minute ago, krupa said:

Is the polling system on this site capable of combining multiple questions?  It might be interesting to see a poll that combines a person's HC with whether they hit "quality" shots.  I would expect that the lower the index, the more score is important.  Higher indexes just want to hit the ball decently.  I would guess that I would take @DaveP043's "low quality" shots all day long.

I think this is a valid point, but it may have more to do with swing changes than with handicap level.  For someone who is working hard to change his swing, I'd guess that hitting more positive shots and fewer negative ones is a measure of progress.  For someone like me, who isn't working on changes, focusing on score is more common.  

As for @krupa's last sentence, I think one of the beauties of golf is that no matter what level each of us plays at, we all hit some good shots and some bad shots in almost every round.  We all have some of the satisfaction, and some of the frustration, its just that our definition of good and bad shots changes.

[WUTiger]

8 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Usually good swing mechanics makes the swing look pretty, but maybe that's just the way I see it?

One guy has a super armsy swing, just past waist at top, and stays below shoulder level on follow-through. Another guy rotates like a discus thrower, looks really spinny, but keeps the ball on line.

They get it done, and sometimes break 90, but these are not swings you would want to use as models for beginners to copy.

[Lihu]

4 hours ago, Jeremie Boop said:

I think the difference in your perspective and mine is simply based on the fact that, right now, I know that my scores will tend to get worse before they get better because of the things I'm working on. Therefore, I am willing to accept a worse score on the card as long as I'm seeing progress in the number of better quality strikes and shots that end up as intended. When I was more focused on score, I was much more quick to abandon whatever I was working on if it hurt my scores even if it was going to help my swing in the long run. This is just the best mindset for me, I don't think someone who is more score-centric in their outlook is wrong at all. I also think you might self-depreciate a bit when it comes to your evaluation how many good shots you hit, though I could be wrong because I've never seen you play. Just as you assuming anyone else you've never seen play hardly ever hits good shots.

Just as a small idea of what I consider a good shot, based off of my 9 holes last night. Not a good score, +10 46, but I wasn't unhappy because I was able to hit some really good shots:

1st hole 271 yard drive in the left center of fairway with wind into and from the left. Mostly from the left.

4th hole 330 yard drive, just rolled off the left of the fairway. Wind mostly helping and a little from the left.

5th hole 313 yard drive, left center of fairway. Same wind as 4th hole.

8th hole 267 yard drive left side of fairway. Wind mostly into and a little off the right.

8th hole 240 yard second shot with 19* hybrid *went a bit long as wind died down a bit, so while it went long the strike and line was good*

There was nothing "lucky" or "happenstance" about these drives or the hybrid shot. They were well struck shots which had good trajectory and ball flight. The 300+ drives were helped by the wind, of course, but they didn't take huge bounces or hit sprinkler heads. Having only 5 good shots made me feel pretty good about the round because of what I am working on in my swing, and because I just started working on it. Now, if I'm only hitting about 5 good shots a month or so from now while working on this same piece, I probably won't walk off the course feeling good about that score. It's all relative.

I think you're taking this question and @Dave2512's comments too seriously. Your good shots are good for you and that should be good enough.

It's really difficult to compare yourself to a better or worse player.

 

1 hour ago, Dave2512 said:

I don't really have perspective just don't think there is any separation between our ball striking and our scores, one leads to the other. I know my scores are going to vary, my last 20 typically has a spread of 8-12 strokes, and I know swing to swing my good rounds and bad rounds probably look similar. I always hit a variety of shots. When I edit my rounds in GG I try to see where I made mistakes and what I could have done better but I don't fixate on the score. When I don't follow a good shot with another I analyze it.

Typically when that happens a couple things cause it. I lose focus, meaning I was distracted and didn't rely on routine to make the best swing possible. Sometime that good shot ends up in a tricky lie, the courses I play aren't high end. We have bare spots, crab grass mounds and the rough can be nasty if they let it grow to save water or it's just better than I planned for and the long miss (approach) finds trouble. But most of the time it's simply it was a slightly worse miss than the previous shot but still half decent. I never think well my string of near perfect shots is over so this hole is doomed I try to recover. The best shots I often hit are the weird stuff, missed green and pitch it to 6". I expect to follow a good drive with a good approach because it's a good opportunity.

I get that people want to take something positive away from the course but think we should reflect on the rounds to see what kept that 46 from being a 40 or whatever. Our scores are relative to our current ability. The inability to capitalize on the better shots is indicative of our ball striking and the better shots the flip side of our inconsistency. We haven't done anything different and progress is slow. It was the same swing as the bad shot it just happened to contact the ball on a more favorable spot on the face, it's not inches different but centimeters maybe even millimeters different.

You're getting a little too serious about answering the posts. Any golfer will be happy making the best shots they can.

What I think you are saying is that the lower handicaps have better contact than higher handicaps, and that's pretty much strongly correlated.

Also, while I agree that a 10HC makes about 4 good shots per round shooting 85, that doesn't necessarily mean the swing is any different on those shots or anything. It's just the contact that's different and that's just because of their relative skill level. They normally expect better contact.

However, you can't deny a higher handicap who feels like they hit 8 or 10 good shots per round that satisfaction either. Those were the best shots they could possibly make and they made 8 or 10 of them or more.

 

55 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

This is the very first item under Rule 1 in the Rules of Golf.  Golf isn't a game of hitting quality shots, it consists of playing a ball from the tee into the hole in the fewest possible strokes.  It doesn't matter how good or bad the shots are, as long as the score is good.  Quality shots are a great tool, but only one of the tools.  Sure, I take satisfaction from each good shot, but at the end of the day its the overall score (or a win/lose in a match) that matters the most to me.  If I shoot a good score without hitting a solid drive, that means I've done most of the other stuff pretty well.  If I drive perfectly, and mis-hit most of my irons, I can still make a good score by scrambling.  I can putt poorly, but if I'm on or around the green on most holes, I can still have a good score.  Sometimes its really satisfying to shoot a good score without hitting many quality shots, because I've been able to overcome my mistakes.  It doesn't matter how, its how many.  

Yes, but the higher the handicap the more likely someone is working on their swing.

If they make decent contact a few times, that could make the difference between a round that feels good and one that they'd rather forget about.

 

23 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I think this is a valid point, but it may have more to do with swing changes than with handicap level.  For someone who is working hard to change his swing, I'd guess that hitting more positive shots and fewer negative ones is a measure of progress.  For someone like me, who isn't working on changes, focusing on score is more common.  

As for @krupa's last sentence, I think one of the beauties of golf is that no matter what level each of us plays at, we all hit some good shots and some bad shots in almost every round.  We all have some of the satisfaction, and some of the frustration, its just that our definition of good and bad shots changes.

Exactly.

 

21 minutes ago, WUTiger said:

One guy has a super armsy swing, just past waist at top, and stays below shoulder level on follow-through. Another guy rotates like a discus thrower, looks really spinny, but keeps the ball on line.

They get it done, and often break 90, but these are not swings you would want to use as models for beginners to copy.

These wouldn't be pretty swings to me, and both golfers probably have the flexibility to make a proper swing.

The 78 year old I know looks like any younger player when he swings, only just a bit slower. It's very pretty to watch, and at the same time he hits very straight and carries a 10HC. He leaves little piles of balls on the driving range due to his extreme consistency.

[saevel25]

5 minutes ago, Lihu said:

It's really difficult to compare yourself to a better or worse player.

I disagree

6 minutes ago, Lihu said:

You're getting a little too serious about answering the posts. Any golfer will be happy making the best shots they can.

Only if the people realize what actually is the best shot, or at least the average shot they should be expecting. 

10 minutes ago, Lihu said:

While I agree that a 10HC makes about 4 good shots per round shooting 85, that doesn't necessarily mean the swing is any different on those shots or anything. It's just the contact that's different. That makes some sense.

Then your definition of good is only 4-5% of all shots taken? If GIR is king then any good shot is one that ends up on the green for an approach shot. That might become a very good or excellent if it's from long distance. 

By Game Golf,
80-85 gets 41% GIR
85-90 gets 31% GIR
90-95 gets 23% GIR
95-100 gets 20% GIR

I could say 20-30% of approach shots are good or better for mid to high handicappers. That isn't including a good tee shot, chip shot, or putt. 

In some cases an nGIR is a good shot if the shot distance is long enough. I don't think your assessment of 4 good shots around is even close. 

25% of 18 is 4.5 shots. You probably have to assume a GIR comes a good tee shot on most of them if they happen on a par 4 or par 5. Maybe half of them have a good tee shot. That is 6-7 strokes just on the long game. Maybe they hit a few good pitch shots because they have more opportunities. If they drain a putt or two. I could see 10-12 good shots a round. 

22 minutes ago, Lihu said:

If they make decent contact a few times, that could make the difference between a round that feels good and one that they'd rather forget about.

Most people remember what happened recently.They forget they hit a ball OB when they more recently duffed a pitch or left one in the bunker. Maybe they miss a 5 ft putt. 

I doubt a few extra well struck shots a round will have a giant impact on them. They might remember a birdie or par putt on the last hole versus the tee shot OB during the middle of the round. 

 

[GolfLug]

People who find more joy in hitting 3-4 more solid shots (for discussions sake, let's say YOUR 85th percentile shots) more than a 3-4 shots better score are transitional. There will come a time when it will be more 'meh' than 'wow'. 

Eventually you will want the 3-4 shots lower scores as well. Over time (let's say 12-15 rounds) you will find you will not be able to sustain the same level of joy in hitting the same 3-4 good shots you did if the scores do not start reflecting your good play. YOU....JUST....WILL.

The 'score monster' will eventually get you and consume you. Spares nobody.

I remember as a rank beginner after the first 3-4 months, I would be genuinely thrilled if I lost no more than 3 balls in a late after work 9 hole round.   

 

 

[Valleygolfer]

45 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I think this is a valid point, but it may have more to do with swing changes than with handicap level.  For someone who is working hard to change his swing, I'd guess that hitting more positive shots and fewer negative ones is a measure of progress.  For someone like me, who isn't working on changes, focusing on score is more common.  

As for @krupa's last sentence, I think one of the beauties of golf is that no matter what level each of us plays at, we all hit some good shots and some bad shots in almost every round.  We all have some of the satisfaction, and some of the frustration, its just that our definition of good and bad shots changes.

How can you expect to score better if you are not working on improvement or practicing?

[Lihu]

12 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

I disagree

Not sure what you mean? The context was that he was implying that his best shots were good by any standard. I think that's incorrect.

So, if you disagree with that, then I have no idea what you are thinking?

 

Quote

Only if the people realize what actually is the best shot, or at least the average shot they should be expecting. 

Then your definition of good is only 4-5% of all shots taken? If GIR is king then any good shot is one that ends up on the green for an approach shot. That might become a very good or excellent if it's from long distance. 

By Game Golf,
80-85 gets 41% GIR
85-90 gets 31% GIR
90-95 gets 23% GIR
95-100 gets 20% GIR

I could say 20-30% of approach shots are good or better for mid to high handicappers. That isn't including a good tee shot, chip shot, or putt. 

In some cases an nGIR is a good shot if the shot distance is long enough. I don't think your assessment of 4 good shots around is even close. 

25% of 18 is 4.5 shots. You probably have to assume a GIR comes a good tee shot on most of them if they happen on a par 4 or par 5. Maybe half of them have a good tee shot. That is 6-7 strokes just on the long game. Maybe they hit a few good pitch shots because they have more opportunities. If they drain a putt or two. I could see 10-12 good shots a round. 

I only make between 6 to 8 greens per round. Sometimes more and sometimes less. Of those that hit the green, I only consider 4 of them to be decent shots. So, that's where I agree that a person shooting 85 (roughly 10HC) hits only about 4 good shots per round. I described the reason why I thought this in an earlier post.

 

Quote

Most people remember what happened recently.They forget they hit a ball OB when they more recently duffed a pitch or left one in the bunker. Maybe they miss a 5 ft putt. 

I doubt a few extra well struck shots a round will have a giant impact on them. They might remember a birdie or par putt on the last hole versus the tee shot OB during the middle of the round. 

Are you disagreeing with me or agreeing? Not sure, but I assume you are disagreeing as that was your first comment. In which case, it makes no sense because you are basically repeating exactly what I said in different words.

 

6 minutes ago, Valleygolfer said:

How can you expect to score better if you are not working on improvement or practicing?

Bingo!

[DaveP043]

6 minutes ago, Valleygolfer said:

How can you expect to score better if you are not working on improvement or practicing?

At this stage of my life (60 years old) I have the lowest handicap I've ever had.  I do practice, but my practice is primarily aimed at maintaining the good habits I've developed, not to change the swing I currently have.  My improvement over the last few years is primarily from becoming more consistent, and that's what I continue to work on.  I know much of the focus at TST is on instruction and improvement, but there are lots and lots of golfers, at all levels, who aren't actively working on making changes, and many of us still manage to enjoy the game.