Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Martyn W

Jason Day's Bad Drops at Firestone

Note: This thread is 1169 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

88 posts / 6312 viewsLast Reply

Recommended Posts

4 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Agree, but I think the better way to clean it up is to not worry about being so precise with the interpretation.  As far as I've heard, the players and the referee seemed to have no problem with it, only some people on this forum.

Heck, if we are going to be so pedantic and take things so literally, I can also point out that the rule does not specify whose shoulder is being talked about.  It just says "shoulder height" knowing full well that that means something different to every player.  But it doesn't say "your" shoulder height, or "your FC's shoulder height."  Additionally, there is also no clarification as to exactly which part of the shoulder we're talking about, and since most of us are not doctors or anatomy experts, we wouldn't be expected to know if they mean a certain part of the clavicle, or the trap muscle, or whatever.

I was going to point out the same thing that shoulder height isn't the same for everyone.  Does a taller or shorter golfer gain an advantage from the rule?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Want to hide this ad? Register for free today!

In my very first PGA/USGA Rules Workshop some years ago, one of the things said to us by John Vander Borght, now the USGA's Director of Rules Communication, during the first hour on the first morning was, "The Rules of Golf are verbally efficient and gramatically correct." 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

 

Also ...

bubbaslugger-847-condon.jpg

346532.jpg

golf-tours-news-blogs-local-knowledge-as

I always knew that Tiger Woods fellow was a cheater!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

1 minute ago, Gunther said:

I always knew that Tiger Woods fellow was a cheater!

Your comment says way more about you than it does about the player. :-(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, Asheville said:

Your comment says way more about you than it does about the player. :-(

Lol.  It was a joke bud.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

1 hour ago, newtogolf said:

I was going to point out the same thing that shoulder height isn't the same for everyone.  Does a taller or shorter golfer gain an advantage from the rule?  

It probably depends on the lie and what surrounds it. I don't think the course conditions are universal enough to say whether taller / shorter has an advantage. Depends on what the most common drop scenario is. Would it be in deep rough? If so, is lower or higher an advantage for getting a perched lie?

If there's a slope and a potentially better lie or clearer shot in the direction the slope is angled then a higher arm than normal may help you get there, while if there's junk close to where the ball will hit the course a lower than normal arm may help you stay out of it.

It would seem the intention of the 'same' arm height is that by keeping that constant, the varying conditions / context for the drop will vary over time, but no situational advantage can be sought.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, newtogolf said:

I was going to point out the same thing that shoulder height isn't the same for everyone.  Does a taller or shorter golfer gain an advantage from the rule?  

That isn't the point.  The point is to establish consistency in dropping for any player from one occasion to the next.  It is intended to prevent a player from changing the potential result by dropping higher or lower depending on his perceived need at the time.  It doesn't matter if the player is 4 feet tall or 7 feet tall, his drops will fall from the same height every time if he follows the rule as it is written.  It's designed to minimize the player's opportunity to manipulate the outcome when dropping.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Oh my.

It's not even being pedantic to say that they should add "must" to each clause. It's wrong and needlessly lengthens things for no gain whatsoever. There's only one to correctly interpret the phrase: must applies to all items in the list, whether bulleted or separated with commas.

And Drew, as I said, players are given a range. JDay was well outside that range, per every rules instructor I've ever known. You don't need to specify a point on the shoulder because the entire shoulder is within the range.

Players are already given plenty of benefit of doubt. Just not so much that JDay shouldn't have gotten to do that without redropping.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

23 minutes ago, iacas said:

And Drew, as I said, players are given a range. JDay was well outside that range, per every rules instructor I've ever known. You don't need to specify a point on the shoulder because the entire shoulder is within the range.

Oh, I didn't realize that.  Where in the rule is the range listed?

Also, do Bubba, JB, and Tiger fall within that range, or are they beyond it as well?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

25 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Oh, I didn't realize that.  Where in the rule is the range listed?

It's not listed, and you know that. But Jason is well outside the allowable range.

As for the other players, Bubba hasn't dropped yet, and the other two players have already dropped, and their hand may have moved.

None of them appear to be as far from perfectly shoulder height (arms pretty much horizontal) as Jason Day.

On July 4, 2016 at 5:55 PM, iacas said:

Screen Shot 2016-07-04 at 5.54.51 PM 50%.png

There's no specific range, but examples of drops "too high" and "too low" were given. Jason's dropping from well above the "too high" example.

I bolded what I wrote up there before, too, because it apparently bears repeating.

Even if you use the yellow lines as a rough idea of "shoulder height" (different referees will be slightly different, but virtually all will be very close to those lines)… Jason Day is well, well outside of that zone. If he dropped from there, that's almost above his head.

I'd have made Jason Day re-drop, and do so properly. There's no penalty unless the player plays it, and there was no penalty for JD because the rules officially basically gave it the okay.

I would not have. I think PGA Tour officials are sometimes a bit lax, because ultimately they work for the players.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

He must stand erect, hold the ball at shoulder height and arm's length and drop it.

This entire thread would be much more entertaining if we were arguing about whether he was fully erect when he dropped.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

7 minutes ago, iacas said:

It's not listed,

I'm a little perplexed by this one.  How is it a rule if it's not in the rules?

7 minutes ago, iacas said:

As for the other players, Bubba hasn't dropped yet, and the other two players have already dropped, and their hand may have moved.

In the pictures on this thread, Day has already dropped as well - maybe his hand also moved up.

9 minutes ago, iacas said:

...(arms pretty much horizontal) ...

Hmmm, we have some pretty different definitions of what horizontal means then.

4 minutes ago, Hardspoon said:

He must stand erect, hold the ball at shoulder height and arm's length and drop it.

This entire thread would be much more entertaining if we were arguing about whether he was fully erect when he dropped.

 

LOL, that would be more entertaining.  Also, his fingers are slightly curled, so I don't know if that is technically "arms length?" :beer:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

24 minutes ago, iacas said:

I would not have. I think PGA Tour officials are sometimes a bit lax, because ultimately they work for the players.

Yep.  An obvious conflict of interest.

13 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

I'm a little perplexed by this one.  How is it a rule if it's not in the rules?

In the pictures on this thread, Day has already dropped as well - maybe his hand also moved up.

Hmmm, we have some pretty different definitions of what horizontal means then.

LOL, that would be more entertaining.  Also, his fingers are slightly curled, so I don't know if that is technically "arms length?" :beer:

I don't know if you really don't know or if you are just being a smartass.  Logically, shoulder height would be from the top of the shoulder to the bottom of the shoulder blade.  What is basically being said is that the arm should be held straight out from the shoulder, parallel to the ground.  If the player does that, then he would be within the range that the rules specify.  Not one of the photos above is parallel.  

Since the Tour lets them get away with it, amateurs think that they should get to do it wrong too.  If I'm refereeing, it won't happen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

50 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

I'm a little perplexed by this one.  How is it a rule if it's not in the rules?

The rule says "shoulder height." The range isn't defined specifically because, like many things in golf, we don't need to bust out rulers and super carefully define everything. We get to use a little common sense and, because you can just re-drop without any penalty at all… just re-drop if it's close to being outside the range, this time with care taken to be closer to horizontal.

Jason Day is well outside the range.

50 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

In the pictures on this thread, Day has already dropped as well - maybe his hand also moved up.

Maybe. I didn't watch. I'm just saying that if his hand stayed in the same place, he didn't drop from "shoulder height." He's farther outside the range than the other players, at least one of whom hadn't dropped yet.

50 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Hmmm, we have some pretty different definitions of what horizontal means then.

Huh?

I said horizontal was what I might call "exactly" shoulder height, and then said that Jason Day appears to be significantly farther from that than the other players. Rules officials allow a range above and below horizontal.

31 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

I don't know if you really don't know or if you are just being a smartass.  Logically, shoulder height would be from the top of the shoulder to the bottom of the shoulder blade.  What is basically being said is that the arm should be held straight out from the shoulder, parallel to the ground.  If the player does that, then he would be within the range that the rules specify.  Not one of the photos above is parallel.  

Since the Tour lets them get away with it, amateurs think that they should get to do it wrong too.  If I'm refereeing, it won't happen.

I feel similarly.

I'd have likely had the players re-drop. I would probably define the allowable range to be pretty small.

The examples of "unacceptable drops" given in my last workshop were not even as far off as JD's drop appears to be in the images posted.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

59 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

In the pictures on this thread, Day has already dropped as well - maybe his hand also moved up.

I posted the screenshots of Day. Both pics are before he dropped the ball.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Note: This thread is 1169 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  



  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • 2019 TST Partners

    PING Golf
    FlightScope Mevo
  • Posts

    • Having played many, many rounds while under the influence of marijuana I can personally attest to it not being performance enhancing.  Against the rules?  Perhaps.  But not performance enhancing. Quite the opposite. Everyone reacts differently to being high, and while it may well reduce stress it also certainly reduces one's ability to focus.  Golf requires focus.  I'd get high and kick ass for about two holes, then be all over the place. I haven't used marijuana since moving to Florida because it's not legal here, and I don't have a qualifying medicinal reason to get a prescription.  I could of course make one up, because it's not like getting a prescription is difficult, but it's not such an important thing to me that I feel the need to go out of my way.  I personally don't see a difference between drinking or smoking beyond the legal aspect - both are personal decisions, and when used responsibly should be an individual's choice.
    • Heck, I will occasionally do this when playing with my wife.  I always feel like an ass when it happens, but she's a good soul and cuts me a break.
    • As others have said, playing a course from the correct tees makes golf a lot more fun. And it makes for more birdie and eagle opportunities. Heck playing from tees even a bit shorter than you need can be fun. I had two eagles in my last round. I played with some guys who like to play a yardage between the back tees and the middle tees. That made it easier to hit par the par 5s in two, and I did just that. Screw the ego, golf is supposed to be fun.
    • I carry Titleist Vokey wedges and have for many many years. I like that I don't have to think every time I replace them. It's easy. I just get the same specs as I've had before and I know what they are going to do. I nearly always get the previous year's model. Still brand new, but the previous year saves me about 40% off the cost.  Anyway, lately I've seen a number of folks I've played with who carry the Callaway PM Grind wedges, which have grooves all over their face. Taylormade hi-toe wedges have that feature as well. I don't know if it actually makes any difference, but to my mind it totally makes sense to put the groves all over the face. It actually makes me wonder why all wedges aren't made that way.  Anyone have any thoughts about this. Why do most manufacturers leave the toe of the wedge "ungrooved"? Does it really help to have the whole face covered in groves?  On a related note, does anyone play a Hi-Toe wedge? Seems like a good idea as well, especially for lob wedges, 60 degree and the like. Seems like it would give you more surface from which to hit a shot when trying to take a bigger swing. I don't use my lob wedge that way, but it seems like it would help if I did. 
    • Offended?  No.  Annoyed?  Absolutely. I played an event in 2015.  It was my first event with this group and I unknowingly got paired with the hothead.  You know the guy.  "I used to be a 1 index!"  Now he's unable to break 90.   First hole, he hits an 'awful' drive (it landed 4 feet in the rough) and complains about it all the way to the ball.  The pin is tucked in the back-right corner of the green behind a trap.  He hits a shot about 35 feet left of the flag at the center of the green.  A good, smart shot.  He proceeds to fling his 7 iron approximately 40 yards into the fairway.   Later in the round, he hits a second shot on a par 5 that he tugged a little bit.  He got a little unlucky and it hit the cart path and kicked it to the left.  The ball came to rest in play, but near a log that, if he moved it... the ball would move as well.  He took an unplayable, chopped the ball forward a bit with his wedge and then proceeded to use his wedge as a hatchet on the log.  About his 8th smash of the wedge, the head snapped off.   Par 3 later in the round, he missed a 10 footer.  He tossed his putter in the air and let it fall to the ground.  The blade of the putter buried itself in the green about 4 feet from the hole.  He attempted to repair it, but it was evident that there was damage and SOMEONE was going to have to putt through his tantrum later in the round.   I wasn't offended by any of his actions.  A 50 year old acting like a petulant toddler?  His problem... not mine.  I was annoyed by his antics, however.   I've told this story before, but... when I was a caddie back in high school at a local country club, I had a guest of a member fling his club over a fence that bordered a local hospital.  This was on the 10th hole.  He was pissed that he hit a poor shot, so he reared back and let it fly.  It cleared the fence.  I looked at him in disbelief.  He told me to climb the fence and get the club.  I put his bag down, apologized to the member and walked back to the caddie master and told him what happened.  Shortly after, the member and his guest arrived back at the caddie area where the member paid me for the full round, tipped me nicely, took my side with the caddie master and then told his guest he'd not be welcomed back any time soon.   Throwing clubs is not acceptable and it IS poor etiquette.  The word is literally defined as: "The customary code of polite behavior in society or among members of a particular profession or group." I don't see how throwing clubs and having a tantrum on the course can be deemed anything but IMPOLITE.   CY
  • TST Blog Entries

  • Blog Entries

  • Today's Birthdays

    1. Nevsteve
      Nevsteve
      (60 years old)
    2. Pab4141
      Pab4141
      (26 years old)
    3. rdpoffenberger
      rdpoffenberger
      (34 years old)
    4. Salem Golfer
      Salem Golfer
      (54 years old)
    5. stothemc
      stothemc
      (36 years old)

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.

The popup will be closed in 10 seconds...