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The golf club industry is due for a major correction.


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12 hours ago, Tee2Trees said:

I keep thinking about how the massive number of new golf clubs being manufactured each year.  Is it reasonable to think that an equal number of old clubs are being thrown away?  At some point, the world will have reached peak inventory and these two numbers will balance out, meaning huge numbers of golf clubs will end up in the dumpster each year.  Today we are comfortable throwing away old Spaldings, Bullet, and Daiwa clubs, but it won't be long before before your treasured Taylormade R11 driver goes right in the trash because it is literally worthless and you need the closet space to hold your winter coat during the golf season.  Kind of odd to think about!

There's also the used market.  2nd Swing, Global Golf, etc.   These companies are grabbing up clubs that would probably otherwise hit the landfill and making a pretty good margin on them (I bet).  That's where I get my clubs and, from casual observation, this area of the market seems to be growing. 

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On 7/28/2016 at 0:09 PM, newtogolf said:

Mizuno, Titleist and Ping heavily enforce MAP on current product lines, which is why they aren't included in the bonus trade-in offers or sales flyers places like GolfSmith send out, read the small print, those three will almost always be excluded.  If a reseller circumvents MAP, they are usually terminated as a reseller.  

The three will offer sales, but you'll see it on their site as it's promoted as a corporate offering.  Resellers cannot even discount discontinued clubs beyond what the three allow for a specified period, after that period, the resellers can discount discontinued clubs.  

That's not necessarily true... Mizuno does on current lines ONLY... 

Reseller's can sell a discontinued model for whatever the hell they want... (It's true) or even this a current model... But if they have a "Sale" they aren't allowed to "advertise" the sale price.

Have any of you bought clubs off of TGW or Golfsmith, that when you do the search/filter it says "Price Too Low To Show" and you have to add the Club to your cart in order to get the price? That is your typical retailer circumvents the MAP requirement as long as the price isn't advertised it isn'y under the Miminum Advertised Price. 

If you think Mizuno, Titleist and Ping are strict. Tour Edge is even stricter. Authorized retailer's MUST sell current models for the "Street Price" quoted in Tour Edge's website. The minor exception is the Bazooka line. But they have to wait around 9 months to do that. But then again most Tour Edge clubs are drop- shipped directly from Batavia, IL.

What's in Shane's Bag?     

Ball: 2022 :callaway: Chrome Soft Triple Track

Driver: :callaway:Paradym Triple Diamond 8° MCA Kai’li 70s FW: :callaway:Paradym Triple Diamond  H: :callaway: Apex Pro 21 20°

I (3-PW) :callaway: Apex 21 UST Recoil 95 (3), Recoil 110 (4-PW). Wedges: :callaway: Jaws Raw 50°, 54°, 60° UST Recoil 110

Putter: :odyssey: Tri-Hot 5K Triple Wide 35”

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7 hours ago, Buckeyebowman said:

True. Like the idiots who will line up outside a store to get the latest iteration of the iPhone!

Or buy Nike shoes!

Why does it bother you? It's their money. They can spend it any way they want.

Scott

Titleist, Edel, Scotty Cameron Putter, Snell - AimPoint - Evolvr - MirrorVision

My Swing Thread

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12 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

That's not necessarily true... Mizuno does on current lines ONLY... 

Reseller's can sell a discontinued model for whatever the hell they want... (It's true) or even this a current model... But if they have a "Sale" they aren't allowed to "advertise" the sale price.

Have any of you bought clubs off of TGW or Golfsmith, that when you do the search/filter it says "Price Too Low To Show" and you have to add the Club to your cart in order to get the price? That is your typical retailer circumvents the MAP requirement as long as the price isn't advertised it isn'y under the Miminum Advertised Price. 

If you think Mizuno, Titleist and Ping are strict. Tour Edge is even stricter. Authorized retailer's MUST sell current models for the "Street Price" quoted in Tour Edge's website. The minor exception is the Bazooka line. But they have to wait around 9 months to do that. But then again most Tour Edge clubs are drop- shipped directly from Batavia, IL.

They can't publish a price below MAP, if they are offering a discount it's 99% likely that it's a promotion that is being extended to resellers.  I provide business / marketing consultation for a Mizuno, Titleist and Ping reseller.  I've met with the reps who have explained their pricing policies.  The time frames vary but they do enforce MAP for discontinued products for a period of time from their being discontinued but they do allow resellers to provide discounts that are dictated by the manufacturer.  

Joe Paradiso

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2 hours ago, newtogolf said:

They can't publish a price below MAP, if they are offering a discount it's 99% likely that it's a promotion that is being extended to resellers.  I provide business / marketing consultation for a Mizuno, Titleist and Ping reseller.  I've met with the reps who have explained their pricing policies.  The time frames vary but they do enforce MAP for discontinued products for a period of time from their being discontinued but they do allow resellers to provide discounts that are dictated by the manufacturer.  

Ok, I get that, but why can any Joe Blow guy can still sell "New" product on eBay for less than MAP? I've seen it happen hundreds of thousands of time. Brick and Mortars resellers it's a lot more strict.

@newtogolf I have a question for you... I'll use Mizuno as an example... Let's say I go to a Golf retailer and want a set of 2014 JPX- EZ irons... and they have them in their possession.... and have paid the wholesaler and Mizuno already has their money.... The retailer trying to get rid of stock, can't they sell them for whatever they can to break even... (we're not talking custom)...

I know you can dump off demo clubs for whatever you can get for them. But I understand the whole eBay thing... Just list it as used... sell them at slightly more than wholesale... 

As the OP said, longer product cycles are needed. The Trade- in value of certain clubs even clubs only 2 years old is going down the loo. Like I know a guy who dumped off a shitload of clubs at Dick's (like 90 or so) and only got a little over $500 and most were made within the last five years. Trade in a set of 1982 Ping Eye 2 irons you still get $80... (Still want a set of green dot eye2s +1" Stiff flex please)...

With the fact that companies like Taylormade and Callaway were putting out product 4 times a year, it really effects the trade in values of their clubs. They want you to buy their newest product, but they are negatively effecting the ability of golfers to trade in one set of clubs and only have to pay maybe about half of full price for a new set.

I will say, TaylorMade to my knowledge hasn't really released any new clubs since the M2 Tour irons....

I think with Mizuno, Titleist and Ping the product cycles are longer so they can control the prices a little longer and the value of gently used clubs doesn't depreciate quite so fast... 

 

What's in Shane's Bag?     

Ball: 2022 :callaway: Chrome Soft Triple Track

Driver: :callaway:Paradym Triple Diamond 8° MCA Kai’li 70s FW: :callaway:Paradym Triple Diamond  H: :callaway: Apex Pro 21 20°

I (3-PW) :callaway: Apex 21 UST Recoil 95 (3), Recoil 110 (4-PW). Wedges: :callaway: Jaws Raw 50°, 54°, 60° UST Recoil 110

Putter: :odyssey: Tri-Hot 5K Triple Wide 35”

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3 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

Ok, I get that, but why can any Joe Blow guy can still sell "New" product on eBay for less than MAP? I've seen it happen hundreds of thousands of time. Brick and Mortars resellers it's a lot more strict.

@newtogolf I have a question for you... I'll use Mizuno as an example... Let's say I go to a Golf retailer and want a set of 2014 JPX- EZ irons... and they have them in their possession.... and have paid the wholesaler and Mizuno already has their money.... The retailer trying to get rid of stock, can't they sell them for whatever they can to break even... (we're not talking custom)...

I know you can dump off demo clubs for whatever you can get for them. But I understand the whole eBay thing... Just list it as used... sell them at slightly more than wholesale... 

As the OP said, longer product cycles are needed. The Trade- in value of certain clubs even clubs only 2 years old is going down the loo. Like I know a guy who dumped off a shitload of clubs at Dick's (like 90 or so) and only got a little over $500 and most were made within the last five years. Trade in a set of 1982 Ping Eye 2 irons you still get $80... (Still want a set of green dot eye2s +1" Stiff flex please)...

With the fact that companies like Taylormade and Callaway were putting out product 4 times a year, it really effects the trade in values of their clubs. They want you to buy their newest product, but they are negatively effecting the ability of golfers to trade in one set of clubs and only have to pay maybe about half of full price for a new set.

I will say, TaylorMade to my knowledge hasn't really released any new clubs since the M2 Tour irons....

I think with Mizuno, Titleist and Ping the product cycles are longer so they can control the prices a little longer and the value of gently used clubs doesn't depreciate quite so fast... 

 

The price restrictions are usually lifted after 3-6 months of the product being discontinued, so the 2014 clubs can be sold for whatever the reseller wants to list them at.  With eBay you're dealing with a lot of variables, there are fakes that look like the real clubs.  China has gotten very good at making fake clubs look like the real ones.  In some cases guys that are associated with Mizuno might offer clubs as "used" under a different eBay store from the actual reseller store and then place the order through the reseller store so Mizuno can't easily track it.  If another reseller complains, Mizuno will research who is doing it.  

Almost every store uses the PGA. com value guide in establishing the trade in value of clubs.  Some stores may offer an additional 50% trade-in above the pga.com value on certain manufacturers like Cobra, Callaway, TM and Nike.  Some manufacturers hold their value better than others, typically those manufacturers that enforce MAP (Titleist, Ping, Mizuno) also have better trade-in values than the others.  If you're buying clubs that you don't plan on keeping for long, resale value should definitely figure into your decision.  Consider Golfsmith is offering the latest Nike Vapor Fly driver for $149 brand new.  This driver sold for $400 - $450 just a week ago.  If you bought that driver and can't return it, you have zero chance of getting more than $150 for it now.  

In terms of product life cycles, Ping has released new woods and irons for I and G series every year.  Titleist alternates irons and woods so each line has an approximate 2 year life cycle.  

Mizuno product life cycles range from 1-2 years, typically two years on irons and one year on woods.  Mizuno is a bit more confusing because they release new iron sets that fall between product lines, such as last year when they released the MP-25's and this year when there will be three new irons sets in the JPX line when there had only been two previously.  No one is sure where the JPX 900 Tours will fit in their overall product offering.  

The key to trading in clubs is to trade them in before their replacements hit the shelf, I alternate a bunch of clubs and sets and will trade in or sell privately clubs that I don't wish to hold on to before their replacements are available so I get maximum value.  If you watch the values on pga.com you'll get a sense of when the ideal time is to trade in clubs at minimal loss.  Keep in mind, once you buy a club and hit it (unless you buy a club guarantee) the value is typically cut by a third, ideally you hope to get at least half of your cost back on trade-in, selling on eBay or CL might get you closer to 70% if there are no obvious scratches or sky marks.  

Product life cycles do influence trade-in values but MAP does even more so.  Titleist doesn't allow discounting of their 716 irons, someone who wants AP2's and can't afford $1200 for new 716 AP2's might be willing to spend $700 on 714 AP2's.  The used Titleist, Ping and Mizuno resellers can keep their prices higher because the manufacturers aren't going to discount the new clubs.  

Joe Paradiso

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In other words, "MAP" is simply "price fixing". Sell these items for less than "MAP" and you lose your distributorship. Reminds me of when I was selling stereo equipment with a discounter back in the 1970's, when there were so called "fair trade" laws. Certain brands (Sony, Marantz, Pioneer, etc) enforced these "laws" by sending around shoppers to see if you were discounting their products. To circumvent this, we would accept any kind or trade-in on a purchase - we gave "top dollar" for used toasters, steam irons, etc. It was a disguised discount. In later years, the "fair trade" laws were eliminated, but now it seems that price fixing has returned as "MAP". I guess if you just can't advertise the price, it is legal. 

 

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Looking for some feedback regarding these "firesale" clubs noted. 

I have been taking lessons and have in the past but now I have the time to dedicate on my game.  My current clubs are Callaway X22 series 4-PW. My coach states these clubs are outdated and heavy.  I swung his callaway apex and WOW, what a difference in weight and feel.  at this point, I dont want to spend 1200+ on a new set with my technique flaws.  I would rather buy something that is better than what i currently own and spend on higher quality/priced clubs once im shooting in the 70's.  Would these sets be an improvement?

2016 Mizuno JPZ EX Forged Irons or the Adams Golf XTD tour iron set

I appreciate your feedback

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7 minutes ago, dmighty said:

Looking for some feedback regarding these "firesale" clubs noted. 

I have been taking lessons and have in the past but now I have the time to dedicate on my game.  My current clubs are Callaway X22 series 4-PW. My coach states these clubs are outdated and heavy.  I swung his callaway apex and WOW, what a difference in weight and feel.  at this point, I dont want to spend 1200+ on a new set with my technique flaws.  I would rather buy something that is better than what i currently own and spend on higher quality/priced clubs once im shooting in the 70's.  Would these sets be an improvement?

2016 Mizuno JPZ EX Forged Irons or the Adams Golf XTD tour iron set

I appreciate your feedback

I don't think the X22's in general are known to be heavy, but you may have heavy shafts in them or they may be over-length.  In stock form they work great for a lot of people.

For a new set, you might want to first think about what style of iron you want to "grow into" as you improve.  That being a super-game-improvement club marked by a long blade length, wide sole, and generous offset, or a regular GI or player's club with a shorter blade length, narrow sole, and little offset.  There are great players who use both types out there, so it really is more about preference than performance.  Some people will insist that a narrow sole is required to maintain a low ball flight, or a short blade length and little offset is required to hit a fade, but professional golfers Colin Montgomery and Annika Sorenstam have proven otherwise during their careers.  But maybe like many people you will find you like players clubs just because they look nicer in the bag and inspire confidence (or so I'm told).

Of the examples you mention, Mizuno JPX-EZ are the most "Super-game-improvement".  After that it would be the Adams XTD irons that are slightly less in this category as well as the Mizuno JPX-EZ forged.  The Adams XTD tour irons are definitely in a different category and can be called regular GI or player's clubs.  Hope this helps!

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3 hours ago, dmighty said:

Looking for some feedback regarding these "firesale" clubs noted. 

I have been taking lessons and have in the past but now I have the time to dedicate on my game.  My current clubs are Callaway X22 series 4-PW. My coach states these clubs are outdated and heavy.  I swung his callaway apex and WOW, what a difference in weight and feel.  at this point, I dont want to spend 1200+ on a new set with my technique flaws.  I would rather buy something that is better than what i currently own and spend on higher quality/priced clubs once im shooting in the 70's.  Would these sets be an improvement?

2016 Mizuno JPZ EX Forged Irons or the Adams Golf XTD tour iron set

I appreciate your feedback

Perhaps this would be a good compromise:

http://www.callawaygolfpreowned.com/golf-clubs/iron-sets/irons-2014-apex.html?cgid=iron-sets

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15 hours ago, Papa Steve 55 said:

Looks like Nike is getting out of balls and equipment and will sell clothing/shoes only. Part of the Tiger fall out I guess.

 

Could be the first domino which has fallen.  I bought a new Method putter from Nike for $90 a couple of years ago and just recently another one for $55 (and passed on a new Method core for $35).  They are probably losing money on clubs even without considering what they pay for the big name endorsements.

Mizuno is similar to Nike corp and could be in similar dire straights with golf clubs.  Srixon/Cleveland is probably bleeding cash on golf equipment as well.  And Adidas is already looking for another buyer for Taylormade/Adams.

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On 8/3/2016 at 4:52 PM, No Mulligans said:

Came across this site after posting.  Went to my local Edwin watts and hit both the XR and APEX irons..
Ended up purchasing the XR from the site

 

On 8/3/2016 at 2:01 PM, Tee2Trees said:

I don't think the X22's in general are known to be heavy, but you may have heavy shafts in them or they may be over-length.  In stock form they work great for a lot of people.

For a new set, you might want to first think about what style of iron you want to "grow into" as you improve.  That being a super-game-improvement club marked by a long blade length, wide sole, and generous offset, or a regular GI or player's club with a shorter blade length, narrow sole, and little offset.  There are great players who use both types out there, so it really is more about preference than performance.  Some people will insist that a narrow sole is required to maintain a low ball flight, or a short blade length and little offset is required to hit a fade, but professional golfers Colin Montgomery and Annika Sorenstam have proven otherwise during their careers.  But maybe like many people you will find you like players clubs just because they look nicer in the bag and inspire confidence (or so I'm told).

Of the examples you mention, Mizuno JPX-EZ are the most "Super-game-improvement".  After that it would be the Adams XTD irons that are slightly less in this category as well as the Mizuno JPX-EZ forged.  The Adams XTD tour irons are definitely in a different category and can be called regular GI or player's clubs.  Hope this helps!

Thanks for your advice and you were spot on regarding the weight, the X22 were over-length.  Also, i had over sized grips which also accounted for the "heaviness"

 

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  • 4 weeks later...
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Steve

Kill slow play. Allow walking. Reduce ineffective golf instruction. Use environmentally friendly course maintenance.

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Note: This thread is 2748 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

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