When is someone a scratch golfer?

[TourSpoon]

1 hour ago, Golfingdad said:

You're forgetting that the handicaps throw out the worst ten.  So your true average is always going to be a few strokes higher than your handicap - unless you shoot the same score all the time.  Using me as an example - my handicap is 4.9 at the moment but if it was calculated using all 20 differentials, it would be 6.7.

79.5 guy would almost certainly be very close to a zero and 72 guy would likely be closer to a 5. :)

LOL, I know you are right but I was trying to tone down my usually over-the-top technical answers! Don't forget the .96 factor!

[David in FL]

32 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

Sure it is. Par (we are assuming 72) at 65 rated course is a differential of 7 and at 77 is a differential of -5. 12 shots difference. Significantly different.  

He said it was two different skill sets.  I disagreed.  It's the same skill set.  Which is what you're saying as well, correct?

[Patch]

I like to think that a "true" scratch golfer as someone who could go to any course, and play golf at a little above par, or better. Maybe a 3-4 stroke spread one way or the other. Courses they have never seen before, they would consistently play around par.

Yes,  that's over simplifying it quite a bit, and I realize slope, and ratings need to be factored in, but scratch is scratch. 

There was a guy who could get around the old Winterwood course in Vegas, who could shoot mid to high 60s just about everytime he went out. His card showed him as a scratch player. However, when he played other courses in the area, he was 10-12 shots higher. His scratch scores were on the one the course he was familiar with. 

 

[nevets88]

For all the exacting definitions, people have in their own minds what scratch is, and some of them you can't argue with. And the MSM plays loose with the definition to fit its own narrative, which probably adds to the confusion of casual watchers.

[Pete]

Scratch is 0 handicap. "He plays off scratch" means he plays off a 0 hcp. I don't understand how a scratch golfer could have a hcp above zero. It's more commonly used when describing a competition as not using handicaps.

[Hardspoon]

I would consider a "scratch golfer" to be anyone with a handicap from 0.0 to 0.9.

Anyone with a cap better than 0.0 has earned the right to be called a "plus handicap".

[No Mulligans]

52 minutes ago, TourSpoon said:

LOL, I know you are right but I was trying to tone down my usually over-the-top technical answers! Don't forget the .96 factor!

.96 times a 1 average rounds to 1, for that matter .96 times a 5 average rounds to 5.  The .96 has little to no affect on most HI calculations for scratch or lower HI's.  That's why it's called a bonus for excellence, it's a slight penalty to high handicappers.

[Pete]

10 minutes ago, Hardspoon said:

I would consider a "scratch golfer" to be anyone with a handicap from 0.0 to 0.9.

Anyone with a cap better than 0.0 has earned the right to be called a "plus handicap".

Doesn't 0.9 round up to a 1 hcp?

[Hardspoon]

3 minutes ago, Pete said:

Doesn't 0.9 round up to a 1 hcp?

No. Handicaps are truncated (not rounded) to tenths. Even a 0.99 is officially a 0.9.

[Golfingdad]

1 hour ago, No Mulligans said:

.96 times a 1 average rounds to 1, for that matter .96 times a 5 average rounds to 5.  The .96 has little to no affect on most HI calculations for scratch or lower HI's.  That's why it's called a bonus for excellence, it's a slight penalty to high handicappers.

Well, since we're talking about indexes here, like @Hardspoon mentioned, there is no rounding, only truncation.  If the average of your 10 best is 5, then with the .96, you're a 4.8.  (Coincidentally, exactly what I'm currently trending to )

[No Mulligans]

39 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Well, since we're talking about indexes here, like @Hardspoon mentioned, there is no rounding, only truncation.  If the average of your 10 best is 5, then with the .96, you're a 4.8.  (Coincidentally, exactly what I'm currently trending to )

Yeah you are correct.

I did say .96 has little to no affect... I was using the rounding as I was thinking course rating.  The course rating used for competitions/bets is where the rounding occurs and is where one gets the benefit (slight benefit) of the bonus for excellence.

For example suppose:

 

 

[TourSpoon]

1 hour ago, No Mulligans said:

.96 times a 1 average rounds to 1, for that matter .96 times a 5 average rounds to 5.  The .96 has little to no affect on most HI calculations for scratch or lower HI's.  That's why it's called a bonus for excellence, it's a slight penalty to high handicappers.

Yep, it gives a slight edge to a better player in a match...now we are getting technical. Love it!

Edit: and it's not rounding as Golfindad pointed out above. Another good catch! 

Edited July 28, 2016 by TourSpoon
Correction

[Pete]

9 hours ago, Hardspoon said:

No. Handicaps are truncated (not rounded) to tenths. Even a 0.99 is officially a 0.9.

I see. I just read that you guys have a specific course handicap depending on your exact HI and the course rating. I did not realise this. We simply have a playing handicap which is nearest whole number from exact handicap and we use it at all courses.

[GolfLug]

15 hours ago, David in FL said:

He said it was two different skill sets.  I disagreed.  It's the same skill set.  Which is what you're saying as well, correct?

We seem to have interpreted in a different context altogether. I interpreted it in context of shooting par on the two courses - "Two entirely different skill sets required to shoot 72 (par) on the each of the two courses".

For eg. In my case, I have a chance to shoot 72 on a course rated 65 (probably a 5700 yard course for eg.) - a differential of 7 which I have.

But don't have the level of skill to shoot 72 on a course rated 77 (prolly some monster like Kiawah Ocean). Have never shot -5 differential and I don't think I will any time soon.

[Jeremie Boop]

51 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

We seem to have interpreted in a different context altogether. I interpreted it in context of shooting par on the two courses - "Two entirely different skill sets required to shoot 72 (par) on the each of the two courses".

For eg. In my case, I have a chance to shoot 72 on a course rated 65 (probably a 5700 yard course for eg.) - a differential of 7 which I have.

But don't have the level of skill to shoot 72 on a course rated 77 (prolly some monster like Kiawah Ocean). Have never shot -5 differential and I don't think I will any time soon.

A scratch player will be able to play to the course rating not par. So on a par 72 that's rated 77, the scratch golfer is expected to shoot 77 at or close to. On a par 72 that's rated 65, the scratch golfer is expected to shoot at or close to 65.

When plugged into the handicap system, both of these scores will end up pretty much at a 0 index. *ignoring slope of course*

Edited July 29, 2016 by Jeremie Boop

[GolfLug]

7 minutes ago, Jeremie Boop said:

A scratch player will be able to play to the course rating not par. So on a par 72 that's rated 77, the scratch golfer is expected to shoot 77 at or close to. On a par 72 that's rated 65, the scratch golfer is expected to shoot at or close to 65.

Agreed. I interpreted @MrFlipper's post in reference to shooting and not in reference to what a scratch golfer will shoot (I know which is what the thread is about).

 

EDIT: Just finished drinking my coffee and re-read the posts and @David in FL' response. My bad. Apologies.

16 hours ago, David in FL said:

He said it was two different skill sets.  I disagreed.  It's the same skill set.  Which is what you're saying as well, correct?

Sorry, yes, my bad.

[David in FL]

1 hour ago, GolfLug said:

We seem to have interpreted in a different context altogether. I interpreted it in context of shooting par on the two courses - "Two entirely different skill sets required to shoot 72 (par) on the each of the two courses".

For eg. In my case, I have a chance to shoot 72 on a course rated 65 (probably a 5700 yard course for eg.) - a differential of 7 which I have.

But don't have the level of skill to shoot 72 on a course rated 77 (prolly some monster like Kiawah Ocean). Have never shot -5 differential and I don't think I will any time soon.

Shooting par has absolutely nothing to do with the context of "scratch" golf.  For exactly the reasons you outline.

editted to add that it sounds as if we agree.  

 

If someone tells me they're scratch, I expect to get my full course handicap from them in a match.  FWIW, although other less skilled players may refer to a 2ish hcp as scratch, I've never heard someone who is a 2ish hcp refer to themselves as such. 

 

[MrFlipper]

19 hours ago, David in FL said:

Not at all.  The same skill set, just achieving a different gross number due to the  relative difference in difficulty of the 2 courses.  The same golfer would expect both results.

I hear what you are saying, in theory I agree, but you take the guy who is scratch at the 5400 yard muni and put him on the black tees at Torrey South and I'd be willing to wager he wouldn't shoot the course rating, or even be close. Conversely, the scratch from the black tees at Torrey South would probably tear up the short muni, but he'd still have to shoot 5 under par or so to shoot the course rating, so he'd have to putt decently.

Way better odds of option 2 happening by far I would think, but I've never played with a scratch from Torrey South back tees. I have played with scratches from shorter munis, many are older guys who can't hit it out of their shadow, on short courses they are great but any distance demand kills them.