Five-some question

[Zekez]

Is there any data to determine if a five-some plays any slower than a two-some and a three-some?

People seem to not like it when a five-some plays, but are they any slower than if they were grouped as a two-some and three-some? 

Would your round, if you were playing behind the five of them, be any slower or faster behind a five-some or the two-some three-some combo?

[bkuehn1952]

Just now, Zekez said:

Would your round, if you were playing behind the five of them, be any slower or faster behind a five-some or the two-some three-some combo?

I do not have any data.  I think it is safe to say, however, that an average performing 5-some versus an average performing 3-some following a similar 2-some, will find the 5-some slower. Yes, we may tee off 10 minutes later from the first tee because there is an extra slot to fill but that time is quickly made up.

[Joe92385]

I'm not aware of any data, but anecdotally it depends on the fivesome.  On the occasions that I've played as a fivesome (and none of us are very good), we play ready golf and keep pace just fine.  In fact, I'd say we probably play faster than if we were in separate groups, for essentially the same reason that waving up a group on a par 3 helps move things along.

Then again, I've certainly been behind a number of very slow fivesomes.  It just depends on how they're playing - not necessarily how WELL, but whether they're playing ready golf or waiting on each others' shots.

[DaveP043]

1 minute ago, bkuehn1952 said:

I do not have any data.  I think it is safe to say, however, that an average performing 5-some versus an average performing 3-some following a similar 2-some, will find the 5-some slower. Yes, we may tee off 10 minutes later from the first tee because there is an extra slot to fill but that time is quickly made up.

+1

It seems like simple math to me.  Even if there are no delays other than everyone waiting for one extra person to hit shots, there has to be some delay.  It may not be a big delay, but unless the players change their behavior to play more efficiently than normal, there has to be something.  That's not to say that all 5-somes are slow, I've played in pretty efficient 5- and even 6-somes, finishing in under 4 hours, but in each case we would have been even quicker playing in foursomes.

[Fourputt]

Yes they are typically slower.  Why wouldn't they be?  They have to play more shots than a smaller group, and with the typical player these days, it's just one more player to not be ready when it's his turn to play.  Just as a twosome can play faster than a foursome, so too can a foursome play faster than a fivesome, all else being equal.

I've played in a fivesome that played 18 in 3:55, but that is not the norm.  With those guys, any 4 players in that group would have played as a foursome in closer to 3:30.  My home course only allows a fivesome on weekdays, and only if all players are riding (3 carts), and they still must keep pace.  If they fall off, then the ranger will break up the group.

[Piz]

Assuming all three groups are maintaining an average pace; I'd prefer to follow the two-some/three-some.  The least scintillating spectacle in golf is watching a large group putt from a vantage point 200 yards away.  Also:  the smaller the group the greater the potential for brisk play.

[Joe92385]

5 minutes ago, Piz said:

The least scintillating spectacle in golf is watching a large group putt from a vantage point 200 yards away.  

There does seem to be a correlation between the size of the group and the perceived amount of time it takes each to go through their pre-putt routine... I'd swear that the same player takes an extra minute to line up his/her putt when in a fivesome.

[RayG]

Played in a few fivers... With carts, I will say. Speed was not really an issue since the place was empty and it was approved by the guy in the shop. 

BUT- I have played behind a "3 and 2"... It's a joke. If your course allows buddy's to play in groups of 2 and 3 because they "don't allow 5 somes", Just let them play as fivers. The group ahead will almost ALWAYS hang back to watch their buds putt before they head to the next tee. So now they're all together on the tee anyway. So you wait for them, AND the guys behind them while they wait for the guys ahead to clear 350 because "they reached them once before". 

So, it CAN work at times- a mostly empty course with players who know what they're doing. But on a busy course with idiots? 

 

[No Mulligans]

I don't have any data but I tried a calculation with various assumptions.  Given that the twosome finishes about 8 minutes after the threesome, I'd expect all 5 to finish about 20 to 30 minutes faster than playing as a fivesome... if you buy into my assumptions.

 

Note this assumes there are no waits for groups ahead.  If the course is clear you'd be better off sending the twosome first so they aren't waiting on the threesome.

[imsys0042]

It depends on how fast/slow the individual players are.   I once was in a group behind a single who was so deliberate he, by himself, was behind pace.   And not a bad player either. 

On average five some will be slower.   I caddied for foursomes as a kid who would do 18 holes in less than three hours.  Add one to them and they are 3:15 at worst 

[Strandly]

Groups of 5 and 6 are the absolute worst and I didn't even encounter such a thing until I got to Idaho.  They try to be accommodating for everyone out here so occasionally I end up behind one of these packs of people and it drives me nuts.  I don't care how fast people think they are, groups of 5+ simply do not belong in this game imo.

[No Mulligans]

One thing I've noticed about fivesomes, they tend to be mostly beginners that don't realize you shouldn't play as a fivesome.  And it's not all about the golf for them, it's social hour... make that social six hours.

[Papa Steve 55]

2 hours ago, No Mulligans said:

One thing I've noticed about fivesomes, they tend to be mostly beginners that don't realize you shouldn't play as a fivesome.  And it's not all about the golf for them, it's social hour... make that social six hours.

Yeah, I was going to say a social afternoon.

[David in FL]

Of course, the same group of 5 is slower than the same group playing as 4, and that 4-some will be slower than the same guys playing as 3.

That's not to say that a 5-some need be slow.  We're fortunate to play at a private club where we're allowed to play 5. Assuming nothing to slow us down, each additional player adds about 15 minutes to our round.  Roughly 3:15 for a 3-some, 3:30 for 4, and 3:45ish for 5.  Slower than 4 players, but still a reasonable pace by most standards.  Needless to say, we're very sensitive to faster groups behind us and let them through as necessary/appropriate.

FWIW, I disagree that most 5-somes are inexperienced players.  Few courses allow groups of 5, and in my experience, the only exceptions are granted to very experienced groups that the course knows will move quickly and genuinely respect the privilege they've been granted.

[Pendragon]

Ultimately, it depends who's in the fivesome. Every Tuesday morning I play with a group of guys, and about 75% of the time we'll play as a fivesome. When we do, we routinely play 18 holes in 3 hours and 15 minutes, give or take 5 minutes. On the days we play as a foursome, we routinely play in...you guessed it...3 hours and 15 minutes. Logically, there should be some variance there, but I think we just step it up a bit on the days that there are 5 of us. Two of us are walkers, too.

Of course, as background, at our club nobody is allowed to start until 7:00 a.m., and on Tuesdays we're always the first ones out. Also, fivesomes are only permitted to start between 7:00 and 7:30, essentially the first 4 groups of the day. 

[RH31]

We often end up playing with a 5 somes in our gaggle due to odd number of players. 2 some could play our course in under 3 hours. 3 some is right around 3 hours(max). I haven't played in a 5 some that finished in under 3.5 hours.

[Fourputt]

It always amazes me how everyone complains about slow play, yet when one of these threads comes up, everyone is Speedy Gonzales.  Seems sort of ironic that we all seem to play faster as a fivesome than we do in smaller numbers.  

And @Pendragon - They let fivesomes out first thing so that they can bog the course down right from the start?  This makes no sense at all to me.  Most courses I play won't even consider letting a fivesome out at all, much less put them out ahead of the rest of the field.

[Pendragon]

I guess you'd have to be there. The relatively few groups (one or two a day) that play as fivesomes at our place are all fast players and never hold anyone up. I'll grant you that letting 5somes out first wouldn't be smart at most courses. And it's not something that we publicize...most of our members probably don't even know about the 5somes situation.