Golf club thief picked the wrong mark - gets held at gunpoint

[disco111]

No apology necessary, but thank you anyway.

The entire point was / is that the FBI stats, regardless of fallibility, are the only offered stats to the general public. In addition, we, the general populace, have no way of garnering that information to refute any or all of that information that's offered. Thusly, since there's no one and no where to access this information except for the FBI, we won't see or hear any specific criticisms, except from here.

As for news reporting, again regardless of sensationalism, is offered to the general populace on a daily level, both locally and nationally. This is the only way that we have to derive a sense of what's happening. Now as far as "I see bad crime therefore crime is getting worse" does hold a tangible level of relevance, because it's being reported from both local and national areas.

The contradiction, imo, derived from not your anecdotal information but rather your stipulation about FBI stats being fallible.

Bottom line to my ranting is that with only one, somewhat agreed with, fallible source of information, can one really stipulate that what's offered is truly representative or at least be objective to the fact that statistics can and are manipulated to achieve a desired agenda.      

[Hardspoon]

17 minutes ago, disco111 said:

The entire point was / is that the FBI stats, regardless of fallibility, are the only offered stats to the general public.

The FBI stats are the best source of aggregate data, but they are assembled from a huge number of smaller sources (something on the order of 15,000). 

It is insanity to think they could be intentionally manipulated in a coordinated manner to show a decrease in crime when the opposite is true. 

 

[Buckeyebowman]

On 8/17/2016 at 11:01 PM, kpaulhus said:

While I can't say I wouldn't do something similar, there are other methods. No way that guy is going to physically "detain" the kid. A license plate number doesn't get the attention of the police like someone calling in about a dude being held at gun point. Who knows, the 24 yr old could have pushed him before the video started. He didn't shoot, so no lethal action was taken. 

Exactly! If I was similarly equipped (I do not CC), and I have a guy 30 years my junior on the ground, I'm going to threaten him with all kinds of mayhem to keep him there! The last thing I want is this guy getting up!

If he gets up and runs away, game over! I can't catch him and I'm not going to back shoot him.

If he gets up and comes at me looking for a fight, that's when my world turns to crap! I have to shoot the guy, or run away myself, taking the chance that he will catch me, beat the crap out of me, and maybe take my gun and shoot me with it! Not a positive outcome.

What I want is that guy on the ground until the cops show up to collect him, and then I will do everything they tell me to do.

As far as the offended party "going too far", he didn't shoot or kill anyone. He simply held the offending party for the police. What went too far? Mere words?

[iacas]

36 minutes ago, Buckeyebowman said:

What went too far? Mere words?

He didn't use only "mere words." And some of the words he used were "I'll kill you."

And he kicked the guy while he was down.

[No Mulligans]

I watched the video, at what point did he kick the man on the ground?  I can't see it / find it.  I believe kicking him in that situation would be a crime.  Battery and maybe assualt and battery too.

27 minutes ago, iacas said:

And he kicked the guy while he was down.

 

[Hardspoon]

7 minutes ago, No Mulligans said:

I watched the video, at what point did he kick the man on the ground?  I can't see it / find it.  I believe kicking him in that situation would be a crime.  Battery and maybe assualt and battery too.

 

1:14 in the video. You see it pretty clearly through the car window.

[Gunther]

1 hour ago, Buckeyebowman said:

Exactly! If I was similarly equipped (I do not CC), and I have a guy 30 years my junior on the ground, I'm going to threaten him with all kinds of mayhem to keep him there! The last thing I want is this guy getting up!

If he gets up and runs away, game over! I can't catch him and I'm not going to back shoot him.

If he gets up and comes at me looking for a fight, that's when my world turns to crap! I have to shoot the guy, or run away myself, taking the chance that he will catch me, beat the crap out of me, and maybe take my gun and shoot me with it! Not a positive outcome.

What I want is that guy on the ground until the cops show up to collect him, and then I will do everything they tell me to do.

As far as the offended party "going too far", he didn't shoot or kill anyone. He simply held the offending party for the police. What went too far? Mere words?

Very rational, dispassionate post.  The only disagreement is that I believe threatening death actually is a crime, I happen to know someone (not a friend) currently serving time for doing it over the internet, although he was associated with a loan shark and that probably colored the judge's verdict.  In this instance, given what you outline, I honestly don't know if the threat constitutes a crime.

Someone else pointed it out earlier, if this guy committed a crime it had to do with that verbal threat and the purported kick/assault, and nothing to do with the gun itself.  

I doubt anything will come of it in terms of punishment to him although the publicity this event has garnered on a mostly emotional basis, has taught this fireman a valuable life lesson.

[JonMA1]

On 8/18/2016 at 1:56 PM, Patch said:

Just reading through this thread, and I am thinking of how many posters on in this thread have actually shot another human being? How many have even pulled a gun on another human being? Worse yet, how many contributing to this thread have actually killed another human being with any kind of weapon?

Some are making it seem like such an easy deal. I am not looking for a show of hands here, but I would suspect not very many ( 1 or 2 at the most) have actually been in a situation where they pulled a gun, shot, and killed another person. Maybe some who might have been in the military, in a life/death struggle. 

Nowhere near the same thing as pulling a gun, but back in the day I was in my house just around dusk when I heard someone jump the fence and saw some guy sneaking around the back yard. So I grabbed a baseball bat (didn't own a firearm back then), went out the other side of the house and circled around behind him. I was scared as hell, but charged at him with the bat. Turned out to be some stoner kid - probably 16-18 years old. He immediately freaked out, started crying and begging me not to shoot him (apparently mistook the baseball bat for a gun????). Told me he was a drug addict and what he was looking to steal.

I didn't do anything beyond threatening him if he ever showed up again. The object was stolen a week or two later.

To be honest, had I caught him in the yard a second time, I probably still wouldn't have hurt him. 

To your point @Patch, for me it would be horrible to take another life. Maybe in those extreme situations where they posed a legitimate threat it might be easier live with. Hope I never have to find out.

 But many people are not like me.

[Lihu]

22 hours ago, ghalfaire said:

Absolutely.  I don't own anything I'd kill someone for.  But I would absolutely shoot someone threatening physical harm to me or my family.

That's very true. If you own something that you think is worth killing someone over then that's really unfortunate.

11 hours ago, Buckeyebowman said:

If he gets up and runs away, game over! I can't catch him and I'm not going to back shoot him.

If he gets up and comes at me looking for a fight, that's when my world turns to crap! I have to shoot the guy, or run away myself, taking the chance that he will catch me, beat the crap out of me, and maybe take my gun and shoot me with it! Not a positive outcome.

What I want is that guy on the ground until the cops show up to collect him, and then I will do everything they tell me to do.

As far as the offended party "going too far", he didn't shoot or kill anyone. He simply held the offending party for the police. What went too far? Mere words?

"Get/Stay on the ground, or I will be forced to fire." would have been a much more appropriate thing to say than "I'll kill you."

[newtogolf]

12 hours ago, Hardspoon said:

The FBI stats are the best source of aggregate data, but they are assembled from a huge number of smaller sources (something on the order of 15,000). 

It is insanity to think they could be intentionally manipulated in a coordinated manner to show a decrease in crime when the opposite is true. 

 

I'm not saying the stats or data are inaccurate, I have no way or reason to believe they aren't but its possible the criteria for reporting or being included in the stats could be manipulated.  

Crime stats first depend on someone reporting a crime and the police responding to the crime to file a report.  I can think of many instances where crimes are committed but not reported and therefore not included in these stats.  I also am not certain that all crimes reported get included in the stats, depending on the crime and the value of the property stolen or damaged.  

[Lihu]

6 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

I'm not saying the stats or data are inaccurate, I have no way or reason to believe they aren't but its possible the criteria for reporting or being included in the stats could be manipulated.  

Crime stats first depend on someone reporting a crime and the police responding to the crime to file a report.  I can think of many instances where crimes are committed but not reported and therefore not included in these stats.  I also am not certain that all crimes reported get included in the stats, depending on the crime and the value of the property stolen or damaged.  

It's tough to get a definite statistic, but here's a one page summary.

http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/agweb/pdfs/cjsc/prof10/formulas.pdf

[newtogolf]

8 minutes ago, Lihu said:

It's tough to get a definite statistic, but here's a one page summary.

http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/agweb/pdfs/cjsc/prof10/formulas.pdf

I understand the formulas but that doesn't mean all reported crimes are included in the statistics.  Obviously it's impossible to include crimes not reported or where reports were not filed which could be a significant number, especially in inner cities.  

[Lihu]

Just now, newtogolf said:

I understand the formulas but that doesn't mean all reported crimes are included in the statistics.  Obviously it's impossible to include crimes not reported or where reports were not filed which could be a significant number, especially in inner cities.  

The police arrest a person when it's established that there actually was a crime committed. There are a lot of calls made that end up not having an actual crime committed.

[Hardspoon]

18 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

I understand the formulas but that doesn't mean all reported crimes are included in the statistics.  Obviously it's impossible to include crimes not reported or where reports were not filed which could be a significant number, especially in inner cities.  

You can argue the nuances of the FBI stats all day, but it doesn't change the fundamental question: do you think there is actually an increase in crime (nationally), despite the stats showing, emphatically, the opposite?

I contend that you'd have to be delusional to think that.

 

[70sSanO]

I finally saw the video.  I'm in the camp that Acree was wrong to brandish a firearm and definitely may face some some discipline for threatening to kill someone.

The biggest issue is that Acree went to find his clubs a day after the robbery took place, he knew what the suspect looked like, and he took a firearm.  He wasn't stopping a crime.  His mindset was to recover his property.  It played out in a public place with innocent bystanders caught up in it.

That said, Montgomery is pretty much scum and that is pretty evident.  Probably plays the system and I'm willing to bet this isn't his first crime, whether previous charges or not.  If I'm in fear of my life, I don't threaten to sue. I don't want to get shot.  And pressing charges and probably a civil case will make Acree think twice.  It is unfortunate.

Irony is that Acree probably knew a lot of law enforcement and may have had a better chance of getting the police to respond to the robbery report than a private individual.

John

Edited August 21, 2016 by 70sSanO

[Buckeyebowman]

20 hours ago, JonMA1 said:

Nowhere near the same thing as pulling a gun, but back in the day I was in my house just around dusk when I heard someone jump the fence and saw some guy sneaking around the back yard. So I grabbed a baseball bat (didn't own a firearm back then), went out the other side of the house and circled around behind him. I was scared as hell, but charged at him with the bat. Turned out to be some stoner kid - probably 16-18 years old. He immediately freaked out, started crying and begging me not to shoot him (apparently mistook the baseball bat for a gun????). Told me he was a drug addict and what he was looking to steal.

I didn't do anything beyond threatening him if he ever showed up again. The object was stolen a week or two later.

To be honest, had I caught him in the yard a second time, I probably still wouldn't have hurt him. 

To your point @Patch, for me it would be horrible to take another life. Maybe in those extreme situations where they posed a legitimate threat it might be easier live with. Hope I never have to find out.

 But many people are not like me.

That's kind of my point! I would hate like hell to have to shoot another human being. Even if they were threatening my life or the life of a loved one! Where do you think PTSD comes from? You have people trying to kill you, and you try to kill them.

What I'm aghast at are those so willing to look lightly upon thievery and other criminal activity. Just let them run away, don't do anything about it. And, my God! The victim actually kicked the perp! Back in the day, the perp would have gotten his brains beat out! Beside, he'll face much worse once he's behind bars.

[JonMA1]

3 minutes ago, Buckeyebowman said:

That's kind of my point! I would hate like hell to have to shoot another human being. Even if they were threatening my life or the life of a loved one! Where do you think PTSD comes from? You have people trying to kill you, and you try to kill them.

What I'm aghast at are those so willing to look lightly upon thievery and other criminal activity. Just let them run away, don't do anything about it. And, my God! The victim actually kicked the perp! Back in the day, the perp would have gotten his brains beat out! Beside, he'll face much worse once he's behind bars.

I believe we are of the same opinion. While it may take a lot for me to become violent, I don't feel the least bit sorry when something bad happens to anyone who habitually preys on others. A kick to the head is nothing, regardless of the legal ramifications. 

[disco111]

Upon reflection, all folks that carry should have to go back and take a 2 hour course on how to use verbal commands. Here's a great example................If the fire marshal used the following , I think everything would have turned out so much better...............

"YO PLAYER.........GET YOUR FACE IN THE DIRT OR I'M GONNA BUST A CAP IN YOUR AZZ.........YOU FEEL ME PLAYER.........