Hogan lateral movement too much for most people?

[cartierbresson]

36 minutes ago, mvmac said:

Have you filmed them? Do they look different?

Yes and yes.

 

Thank you for sharing the post. I disagree with the author's conclusions. The subject of how best students learn, while getting helpful input from educators, is more rigorously studied in the realm of educational psychology, psychometrics and cognitive science (each contribute to "Sport Psychology"). It is in those spheres where you can provable claims like the Experience Curve Effect and Zone of Proximal Development (ZPD), which are the building blocks of good instructional programs. Articles that rely on empirical evidence are often only partly right, because it only takes one counter-example out of the whatever million golfers there are in the world to disprove that claim. It's simply too broad a claim. 

As if to prove my point, I've been a stupid monkey for the 30 years I've been playing and it's not helped. Now you could try to tease my stupid monkeyness apart to verify it matches your assumptions, but I suspect you'll end up concluding that stupidness isn't binary. Which, when stated to sport psychologists, would be a fairly obvious point. What you're really asking is: how much stupid intelligence is appropriate for a particular student, which is what these people are paid to theorize about. 

The optimal rate of learning, for example, has far more to do with rate of repetition (something that golfing learners are often said to be cursed with). It has as much to do with scaffolding, individualized instruction, better assessments etc (video and 3d analysis in the golfing world). Scaffolding is the idea that a person learns most optimally not when he is taught something he can do independently, but instead something he can only do when there is an instructor present. In golf terms, for myself, that may mean learning how to slide my hips (something I can do independently) and separate my left knee. According to research, doing both may be more effective than doing just the former. Individualized instruction means that statistically speaking, it is very unlikely that two students learn at the same rate, so teaching them at the same rate is suboptimal. In golf terms, this could mean that at some point in time, someone may actually learn better when hosed with a number of concepts at the same time. While unintuitive, that's what science says. 

In any case, a person's request to be educated isn't a sign of over-education. I'm confident of my ability to distinguish between the two.

[JonMA1]

4 hours ago, cartierbresson said:

Individualized instruction means that statistically speaking, it is very unlikely that two students learn at the same rate, so teaching them at the same rate is suboptimal.

My apologies if I've missed your point, but no where in the article does the author imply that instructors should teach their students at the same rate. For that matter, the instructors here don't teach students the same priority.

Unlike many other sources of golf instruction, the instructors here don't apply a paint-by-numbers approach - quite the opposite.

4 hours ago, cartierbresson said:

In golf terms, this could mean that at some point in time, someone may actually learn better when hosed with a number of concepts at the same time. While unintuitive, that's what science says.

They have a term for that type of learning - Attention Deficit Disorder. The results are known as a cluster#@^&. While I don't have any scientific studies that support this, I personally experience both on a daily basis.

If you're interpreting the data correctly, I'd have to strongly disagree with it. Attacking a priority problem is, in my opinion, an effective method that can be applied to more than just golf instruction. Fixing one issue often fixes others. Going after multiple issues at the same time usually results in doing several things poorly instead of one thing well.

Edited December 4, 2016 by JonMA1

[Ernest Jones]

So, is the OP looking for advice or is he really only interested in validation of his own preconceptions? I can't tell anymore, but he sure seems opposed to receiving any advice that doesn't perfectly dovetail with what he already thinks....

---

Last attempt:

@cartierbresson, if you really have 12 - or whatever - swings, ditch the shitty ones and keep the one that apparently stripes a 3i with a baby draw and post it. The community here can (assuming we haven't all lost interest in this thread) help identify the flaws in it, find your priority piece and you can start working on it. 

Or you can just keep talkin' the talk.

 

[cartierbresson]

36 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

They have a term for that type of learning - Attention Deficit Disorder. 

That's wrong and inappropriate. ADD is a disorder, not something to be joked about. 

"Attacking a priority problem" may or may not be helpful. It depends on the problem and the student and is one of the ways instruction is individualized. Changes to the address position, the grip, ball position etc very often happen together. Sliding and turning of the hips aren't taught separately (but very well could be and may encourage more clarity). It all depends.

 

 

[cartierbresson]

4 minutes ago, Ernest Jones said:

So, is the OP looking for advice or is he really only interested in validation of his own preconceptions? I can't tell anymore, but he sure seems opposed to receiving any advice that doesn't perfectly dovetail with what he already thinks....

---

Last attempt:

@cartierbresson, if you really have 12 - or whatever - swings, ditch the shitty ones and keep the one that apparently stripes a 3i with a baby draw and post it. The community here can (assuming we haven't all lost interest in this thread) help identify the flaws in it, find your priority piece and you can start working on it. 

Or you can just keep talkin' the talk.

 

@Ernest Jones thank you for your suggestions.

 

[JonMA1]

2 minutes ago, cartierbresson said:

That's wrong and inappropriate. ADD is a disorder, not something to be joked about. 

"Attacking a priority problem" may or may not be helpful. It depends on the problem and the student and is one of the ways instruction is individualized. Changes to the address position, the grip, ball position etc very often happen together. Sliding and turning of the hips aren't taught separately (but very well could be and may encourage more clarity). It all depends.

You incorrectly assumed it was a joke and not something I deal with everyday. Besides, if we can't make light of ourselves then life is just too serious. But thanks for the sensitivity training.

Nothing wrong with addressing a couple things at once so long as most are easy adjustments. But giving a student several things to work on when all of them may require a considerable amount of time to fix is counter productive. Again, just my opinion.

Sounds like you've had different experiences. We'll just agree to disagree.

[Ernest Jones]

5 minutes ago, cartierbresson said:

That's wrong and inappropriate. ADD is a disorder, not something to be joked about. 

"Attacking a priority problem" may or may not be helpful. It depends on the problem and the student and is one of the ways instruction is individualized. Changes to the address position, the grip, ball position etc very often happen together. Sliding and turning of the hips aren't taught separately (but very well could be and may encourage more clarity). It all depends.

 

 

I am starting to think that you don't really understand how prioritization works, or there's something missing in your understanding of what is being said. If your approach isn't to attack the priority, then it would seem to me at least, that you are suggesting that it is beneficial to address something that is not the priority instead. 

The problem with that, is if you are addressing something further down the chain, then you are not fixing the priority issue/fault. Sooner or later, you'll need to address that issue if you hope to improve, and all the work you did on "something else" will have been a waste of time because the work on the priority piece will affect change on all those downstream pieces. That's WHY it's a priority piece.  Worse news: the work you did on those "other" things will likely need to be undone as all of that work was simply ingraining compensations. You are developing compensations or work-arounds to get the most out of a swing that is suffering from an ignored priority piece. 

You are putting the cart before the horse.  

[cartierbresson]

2 minutes ago, Ernest Jones said:

The problem with that, is if you are addressing something further down the chain, then you are not fixing the priority issue/fault. Sooner or later, you'll need to address that issue if you hope to improve, and all the work you did on "something else" will have been a waste of time because the work on the priority piece will affect change on all those downstream pieces. That's WHY it's a priority piece.  Worse news: the work you did on those "other" things will likely need to be undone as all of that work was simply ingraining compensations. You are developing compensations or work-arounds to get the most out of a swing that is suffering from an ignored priority piece. 

You are putting the cart before the horse.  

Understand and agree about priorities. I was stating earlier that research shows us that sometimes it's more optimal for a student to learn multiple concepts at once. It simply has to be that way, because if it weren't, it would logically deduce that students learn in the same way, which they don't. I learned far worse when I was told about hip movement with respect to my upper body. But I learned far better when told about hip movement with respect to my knees. 

In any case, I was simply responding to the "stupid monkey" theory. I disagree with it, because psychology disagrees. Personal experience matters less (not entirely irrelevant though since they make for useful counterexamples).

[Ernest Jones]

Okey Dokey. 

[Hardspoon]

Since the question in this thread has been answered:

7 hours ago, mvmac said:

It depends. On many factors, player's handicap, amount of rotation, trail elbow location, head/torso position, etc. There isn't one universal answer unfortunately

...and you are now mostly disagreeing with the Stupid Monkey theory:

40 minutes ago, cartierbresson said:

In any case, I was simply responding to the "stupid monkey" theory. I disagree with it, because psychology disagrees.

...@cartierbresson, you should head over to that thread and post there (after reading the whole thing!) There have been some interesting discussions there.

I think you may be oversimplifying it a little. @iacas can correct me if he disagrees, but in my view, the fundamental essence is not about learning only one thing at each lesson, it's about practicing and changing one thing at a time.

I've had lessons with @iacas where I received 10+ specific different things to work on:

The key, however, was to work on them individually and tackle them in an achievable way (nailing down the address pieces first, with a mirror, for example). Also, it was important not to notice other things in my videos and try to "jump ahead" to fixing those without checking with my instructor (that's the hardest part for me).

So, the Stupid Monkey thing isn't as simple as "get one tip at each lesson".

Anyway, this is just my two cents. I think we'd all welcome your input on the discussion over in that thread (maybe a mod even wants to move this post). I am aware that my experience is anecdotal, but I shared only to give an example of the breadth of content that can be addressed in one lesson, even when applying the Stupid Monkey theory.

[No Mulligans]

@cartierbresson, Posting a swing is easy to do and how could it hurt?

Why won't you post a video of your swing?

[phillyk]

9 hours ago, cartierbresson said:

They are more similar than different, but I suspect they're more different than you think. I've been to the range about 4 times/week for the past one year (4x4x12 =~ 192 times/year). While not on the range, I've been watching videos and doing mirror work, clocking in more hours outside the range than in it. That's a lot of golf moves, and not all of them are congruent. It shouldn't be altogether surprising that someone who has been struggling with the game has that many different ways of hitting the ball. Even if it is surprising, it is what it is. 

"Priority" assumes I know how to prioritize, but that is the very topic of this discussion.

 

1 hour ago, cartierbresson said:

Understand and agree about priorities. I was stating earlier that research shows us that sometimes it's more optimal for a student to learn multiple concepts at once. It simply has to be that way, because if it weren't, it would logically deduce that students learn in the same way, which they don't. I learned far worse when I was told about hip movement with respect to my upper body. But I learned far better when told about hip movement with respect to my knees. 

I'm having trouble gathering what you're looking for.  We went from hogan's lateral movement to prioritizing your practice.  If you claim that you hit the range and/or practice that much and have 12 swings/swing thoughts, then the problem is that either you don't practice correctly or that you're incorrectly assuming that thinking about multiple desired outcomes (priorities) helps more than having one.  Or maybe you do have a single priority piece but are trying to find different drills and "feels" to achieve the desired outcome, like how you talk about hip movement with respect to knees vs upper body.  You're still trying to achieve the same result but using a different drill or feel to achieve it.  Which is it?
 

If you want something to read, try http://lowestscorewins.com/

[iacas]

3 hours ago, cartierbresson said:

In any case, I was simply responding to the "stupid monkey" theory. I disagree with it, because psychology disagrees. Personal experience matters less (not entirely irrelevant though since they make for useful counterexamples).

That's wrong. Psychology doesn't disagree. You clearly don't understand what the Stupid Monkey thread is about.

You're coming across more and more like the sucky golfer who thinks that if he uses his brain he can solve things.

The instruction you've gotten has likely been bad. If you have 12 swings or even four or five you're stupid in your own way.

Hogan was one way to swing a club. There are millions of others.

1. Pick your best swing.

2. Figure out the priority piece.

3. Attack that until it's not the priority anymore.

4. Go back to 2.

P.S. Hogan didn't even swing like he wrote. Great players often make terrible instructors.

[mvmac]

I'm confused by what you're looking for @cartierbresson. 

Hogan's slide may or may not be too much for most people. It's depends on several factors, rotation being a big one. I can show you plenty of hall of famers that don't slide as much as Hogan but all good players do have some slide and get their weight forward at impact. That should basically be your takeaway from an educational/seeking knowledge perspective. Hogan was one guy with his own priorities and tendencies. If you are trying to copy someone's swing you're going down the wrong path. Learn from what great players do, don't try and copy their positions.

Regarding the Stupid Monkey advice and priority pieces. I think you're confusing what it means. Being a stupid monkey means to find a qualified instructor and work on one piece at a time. It doesn't mean to use 12 different swings or to work on one thing and then try something else when you've hit a couple bad shots. It also doesn't mean that you shouldn't ask questions or gain some basic knowledge. Your goal as a golfer (if you want to improve) is not to get a PHD in golf theory. 

[billchao]

4 hours ago, cartierbresson said:

"Attacking a priority problem" may or may not be helpful. It depends on the problem and the student and is one of the ways instruction is individualized. Changes to the address position, the grip, ball position etc very often happen together. Sliding and turning of the hips aren't taught separately (but very well could be and may encourage more clarity). It all depends.

 

3 hours ago, cartierbresson said:

Understand and agree about priorities. I was stating earlier that research shows us that sometimes it's more optimal for a student to learn multiple concepts at once. It simply has to be that way, because if it weren't, it would logically deduce that students learn in the same way, which they don't. I learned far worse when I was told about hip movement with respect to my upper body. But I learned far better when told about hip movement with respect to my knees. 

I don't think you understand what addressing a priority piece is, based on your responses. A priority piece is not a singular movement that needs to be learned in order to progress to the "next step" and a new piece. Learning the golf swing is not linear. Often, fixing a priority piece will fix several swing flaws, most of which weren't even addressed in the first place.

A priority piece is simply the most important part of your swing that is holding you back. It may involve learning different movements and can be taught differently to different people even if they have the same priority. Different people feel things differently and that's where a good instructor is important. It is his/her job to identify it and then communicate it in such a way that the student learns it. Your own example about hip movement illustrates that.

I am probably one of the biggest self-discovery swing junkies here at TST and I'd still be completely lost if it wasn't for some great instructors along the way.

[iacas]

A bit longer post now that I'm not on my phone…

13 hours ago, cartierbresson said:

They are more similar than different, but I suspect they're more different than you think.

I doubt it. Not if they're mildly functional.

And seriously, again, what on earth would lead you to believe simultaneously developing twelve different golf swings was a good idea?

13 hours ago, cartierbresson said:

While not on the range, I've been watching videos and doing mirror work, clocking in more hours outside the range than in it.

Watching videos doesn't mean you can "do" those things.

Golf is not an academic experience. It's a physical one.

13 hours ago, cartierbresson said:

It shouldn't be altogether surprising that someone who has been struggling with the game has that many different ways of hitting the ball. Even if it is surprising, it is what it is.

It is what you made it. Yes, it's surprising. Again, what on earth lead you to believe that developing 12 golf swings was at all a reasonable or intelligent path?

13 hours ago, cartierbresson said:

"Priority" assumes I know how to prioritize, but that is the very topic of this discussion.

It isn't, really. We don't know that the way your hips work are at all a priority.

13 hours ago, cartierbresson said:

So is Hogan's Five Fundamentals. Are there other reasons other than age that you wouldn't recommend The Golfing Machine?

It isn't an instructional manual, and it won't help you identify what the biggest problem is with your golf swing.

13 hours ago, cartierbresson said:

I'm not a big fan of putting blind faith in instructors, golf or otherwise. I would argue that it is the very mindset of questioning the instructor that makes a better student.

To a point. And then you just have to get down to work.

13 hours ago, cartierbresson said:

As I said before, I'm not shy of sharing my swing. I'm opposed to it for the purposes of this discussion because it's not required. I'm very happy just discussing Hogan's swing and learning more about why his particular hip slide works. That's educational.

Then do it.

For the purpose of this discussion… this discussion lacks a purpose. Your question was answered up above, and in two words, the answer is "it depends."

Again, too, the golf swing is not an exercise in academia. It's a physical one.

11 hours ago, cartierbresson said:

Thank you for sharing the post. I disagree with the author's conclusions.

You don't seem to understand the point of the post.

11 hours ago, cartierbresson said:

As if to prove my point, I've been a stupid monkey for the 30 years I've been playing and it's not helped.

I don't think you have. I don't think you understand what a "Stupid Monkey" is. I think you've been very close to the other end of the spectrum, or you've been the recipient of crappy instruction.

Of course it's not binary. Nobody's said it is.

11 hours ago, cartierbresson said:

What you're really asking is: how much stupid intelligence is appropriate for a particular student, which is what these people are paid to theorize about.

That's really not what it's talking about.

11 hours ago, cartierbresson said:

The optimal rate of learning, for example, has far more to do with rate of repetition (something that golfing learners are often said to be cursed with). It has as much to do with scaffolding, individualized instruction, better assessments etc (video and 3d analysis in the golfing world). Scaffolding is the idea that a person learns most optimally not when he is taught something he can do independently, but instead something he can only do when there is an instructor present. In golf terms, for myself, that may mean learning how to slide my hips (something I can do independently) and separate my left knee. According to research, doing both may be more effective than doing just the former. Individualized instruction means that statistically speaking, it is very unlikely that two students learn at the same rate, so teaching them at the same rate is suboptimal. In golf terms, this could mean that at some point in time, someone may actually learn better when hosed with a number of concepts at the same time. While unintuitive, that's what science says.

You've hosed yourself by developing 12 swings…

6 hours ago, cartierbresson said:

"Attacking a priority problem" may or may not be helpful.

It's always helpful. There's no "may not" about it. You don't understand what a "priority problem" is.

6 hours ago, cartierbresson said:

Understand and agree about priorities. I was stating earlier that research shows us that sometimes it's more optimal for a student to learn multiple concepts at once.

It's not. Not when we're talking about playing golf.

You're getting muddled down by two things in particular:

• You don't seem to understand what we're saying to you about "priority pieces" and "stupid monkey" and all that.
• You don't seem to understand that golf is not an academic challenge, and thus, is not the same as learning something academic.

If someone's learning trigonometry you don't suddenly start throwing out equations meant to calculate the volume of a cylinder or Planck's constant or how to balance a chemical equation. You teach them trig. You might vary in how you teach that depending on what "clicks" with that student, but at the moment, if trig is what they need to learn, you just teach them trig. You don't "hose" all of math at them.

2 hours ago, billchao said:

I don't think you understand what addressing a priority piece is, based on your responses. A priority piece is not a singular movement that needs to be learned in order to progress to the "next step" and a new piece. Learning the golf swing is not linear. Often, fixing a priority piece will fix several swing flaws, most of which weren't even addressed in the first place.

Yup.

2 hours ago, billchao said:

A priority piece is simply the most important part of your swing that is holding you back. It may involve learning different movements and can be taught differently to different people even if they have the same priority. Different people feel things differently and that's where a good instructor is important. It is his/her job to identify it and then communicate it in such a way that the student learns it. Your own example about hip movement illustrates that.

I am probably one of the biggest self-discovery swing junkies here at TST and I'd still be completely lost if it wasn't for some great instructors along the way.

Bingo.

[cartierbresson]

15 hours ago, Hardspoon said:

]...@cartierbresson, you should head over to that thread and post there (after reading the whole thing!) There have been some interesting discussions there.

@Hardspoon you're right, stupid monkey discussions belongs belong on the Stupid Monkey thread.

@No Mulligans it's not difficult posting a swing, just irrelevant to this discussion. Not a matter of hiding things either, since there's a video of my swing already in the Member Swings forum.

@iacas thank you for your...words.

@mvmac interesting what you said about hip rotation and rotation. To a beginning golfer, how much (concurrent or independent?) hip slide and rotation do you recommend? How do you then go on to adjust that amount? 

@billchao understand priority. I've found that simply being told what to do doesn't satisfy me: I want to know why. Asking questions isn't wrong and that's what I'm doing here. Of course, it may make it difficult to manage all that information, but I like a challenge. 

My purpose of starting this discussion is learning the criteria for judging hip slide. I learned that it depends on the torso, knees, hip rotational rate etc, but going forward I'm hoping to learn more. If you feel like there might be a better resource for that information, I'd love to know what.

 

[mvmac]

22 minutes ago, cartierbresson said:

@mvmac interesting what you said about hip rotation and rotation. To a beginning golfer, how much (concurrent or independent?) hip slide and rotation do you recommend? How do you then go on to adjust that amount? 

Without seeing your swing the easiest way to do it would be to use the left knee as a guide. From the top of the backswing the knee will rotate counter-clockwise as it stays flexed. Basically it moves from inside the left ankle (knee points to about 12:30, 1:00) to a slightly outside the ankle (ankle around 10:30) by the time the shaft is parallel to the ground on the downswing. So the knee is transferring forward as it's rotating. Please understand this is a general guideline, not exactly what "has to" happen. Be less concerned about the amount/measurements and more focused on the motion.

Another way to feel it would be to get the hips open around 40 degrees by impact with the weight forward, left foot feeling"heavy".