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Paige Spiranac on Cyber Bullying


iacas
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Bullying should have consequences. The anonymous part of social media protects cowardly cyber-jerks to a point. But there has to be a way to chastise or remove them from the net. Legal action is one way, but it only goes so far.

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1 minute ago, boogielicious said:

Bullying should have consequences. The anonymous part of social media protects cowardly cyber-jerks to a point. But there has to be a way to chastise or remove them from the net. Legal action is one way, but it only goes so far.

Yes, please, let's start talking about possible solutions.

How much skin should Snapchat, Instagram, etc. have in the game? How much of a responsibility - moral, legal, fiscal? - should they have to protect users? When does it become censorship? How does it vary by country?

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2 hours ago, phillyk said:

When I was in college, I've been to parties where I've seen girls being pushed around or even guys dragging them outside.  Either myself or my friends stepped in every time.  We've gone as far to walk girls home because they were alone and had to go through a sketchy area where this type of thing happens.

There is a tremendous difference in your post both in the offense and your reaction to it. By stepping in, you actually accomplished something. You are to be commended as it takes actual courage to act - and it's the right thing to do.

For those so quick to blame me for caring too little about an athlete or celebrity, please list the actions you're taking beyond voicing your opinion in a golf forum - because that ain't really helping. 

Are you donating time? Money? Are you actively trying to define what is legal and illegal freedom of speech and changing the laws if necessary? Introduce a law that is fair and I'll support it.

Talking about it or declaring your opinion may make you feel as though you're making a difference., but it's not going to matter to the vast majority of mean-spirited cowards who like to emotionally hurt others.

Here are a few things that can be done...

  • We talk to our kids starting when they are very young and reinforce throughout their childhood how wrong it is to join in with bullying.
  • Stand up for the unpopular kids.
  • Recognize that someone who is different or socially awkward may not have the family life you enjoy.
  • If you're on the receiving end, be strong. There's more to life than being popular in the 6th grade.
  • As parents, show by example in not making fun of others (this isn't as easy as it sounds and I've failed at times).

I'd bet money that @14ledo81has had a similar conversation with his children.

Spoiler


2 hours ago, iacas said:

It's not a straw man. It's a related topic. It's another example where people blame the victim, though, because they should have "expected" it.

Sorry, but I have to disagree Erik and @saevel25. How it was worded was a straw man argument as no one had stated that the victim in a rape is to be blamed nor that we should accept it. Sexual assault is not even in the same ball park as typing something mean on social media. Most of us have been hurt in our lifetime by someone simply being mean, and depending how old we were, it may have even left scars. But ask a rape victim how the two compare.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, iacas said:

More victim blaming? :-) Just kidding.

No, it's not just "how I choose to take it." I feel I was pretty clear in that post about why just saying "she should expect it" comes across the way it does. It doesn't do anything - not one little bit - to place blame on the bullies or to reduce, curb, admonish, etc. their behavior.

 

I think I see where you are coming from now.  There is a difference in saying (after the fact), "you should have expected it".  vs. (before anything happens), "you should expect x to happen a certain % of the time, its not your fault, but it will happen."

I do think we should give people (namely me in this case) the benefit of the doubt that, just because they use the term "expect", they are not condoning the action or blaming the victim.

-Matt-

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3 minutes ago, iacas said:

Yes, please, let's start talking about possible solutions.

How much skin should Snapchat, Instagram, etc. have in the game? How much of a responsibility - moral, legal, fiscal? - should they have to protect users? When does it become censorship? How does it vary by country?

How easy is it to censor certain phrases or sentences with key words that are deemed abusive?  All they would have to do is add it to their user agreement or whatever that certain abusive language will be automatically deleted.  There is a lot of wiggle room in that, but maybe it's a start.

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37 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

For those so quick to blame me for caring too little about an athlete or celebrity, please list the actions you're taking beyond voicing your opinion in a golf forum - because that ain't really helping. 

I do a fair amount, not only with my daughter, but with my wife who is a teacher and who has to deal with this type of thing as part of her job.

Just last night, I started this thread, which encourages discussion and awareness, which is more than a lot of people have done/will do.

This is about far more than an athlete or celebrity. The teens committing suicide are not athletes and celebrities.

37 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

Sorry, but I have to disagree Erik and @saevel25. How it was worded was a straw man argument as no one had stated that the victim in a rape is to be blamed nor that we should accept it.

Of course nobody's outright stated that they should be blamed. That misses the point.

Saying "she should have expected that" does NOTHING to help curb the problem. The best that can be said for it is that it can be taken to be neutral - a simple statement of probabilities or something.

36 minutes ago, 14ledo81 said:

I think I see where you are coming from now.  There is a difference in saying (after the fact), "you should have expected it".  vs. (before anything happens), "you should expect x to happen a certain % of the time, its not your fault, but it will happen."

Not only that, but can you imagine telling someone who was a victim of cyberbullying - maybe even one who may have tried to take his or her life - that she should have "expected" it? It's like you're calling them stupid or naive. Regardless of the facts, nobody's going to take solace in the fact that they should have "expected" something. They're going to feel worse.

36 minutes ago, 14ledo81 said:

I do think we should give people (namely me in this case) the benefit of the doubt that, just because they use the term "expect", they are not condoning the action or blaming the victim.

I have. Always. I know you're not "bad people."

But why keep hammering this issue? Realize that saying "she should have expected it" at BEST comes off as perfectly neutral, and move on. Discuss actual results that can improve the future; don't just tell us the way things are as if there's nothing you can do about it, now or ever.

33 minutes ago, phillyk said:

How easy is it to censor certain phrases or sentences with key words that are deemed abusive?  All they would have to do is add it to their user agreement or whatever that certain abusive language will be automatically deleted.  There is a lot of wiggle room in that, but maybe it's a start.

It's probably quite difficult. All words depend on their context. I've heard women call their close friends "who-re" (one of the few censored words here, hence the dash) in a positive way, and of course the word can be used negatively too. It depends on the context.

It's not like you can hire people to take action on any "flagged" posts too based on a list of words or phrases, either. It'd be a non-stop job for hundreds of people… or thousands… or more.

With AI (or "machine learning) being what it is today, there's a chance filters could be enacted soon, but I'm not holding out my hope for that, because people will always find a way to stay ahead of machines. They have to learn based on examples, after all…


This young woman was on Shark Tank: http://www.rethinkwords.com . I've donated a fair sum to her efforts.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
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30 minutes ago, iacas said:

Yes, please, let's start talking about possible solutions.

How much skin should Snapchat, Instagram, etc. have in the game? How much of a responsibility - moral, legal, fiscal? - should they have to protect users? When does it become censorship? How does it vary by country?

Here is one example of consequences. 

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/sandy-hook-victim-parent-threatened-death-florida/

Arrested and facing 20 years in prison. 

Scott

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24 minutes ago, iacas said:

How much skin should Snapchat, Instagram, etc. have in the game? How much of a responsibility - moral, legal, fiscal? - should they have to protect users? When does it become censorship? How does it vary by country?

I think if its persistent. Like maybe if the user has been flagged and is now being scrutinized more so for their bullying that they can then be banned if it continues. 

I think some people could have a good argument that a social media network could be negligent if they allow bullying to happen. Especially if they have banned people in the past. Then there is precedence for them taking action and why should they not choose to do so now? 

I think social media should protect its users. It's a network of people, a community. They should be willing to protect the morally good use of it. 

It doesn't matter if its censorship. There is no law against it. Just like forums can ban people, social media should as well. 

 

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34 minutes ago, phillyk said:

How easy is it to censor certain phrases or sentences with key words that are deemed abusive?  All they would have to do is add it to their user agreement or whatever that certain abusive language will be automatically deleted.  There is a lot of wiggle room in that, but maybe it's a start.

Instagram added this feature. I think it was first tested on Taylor Swift after her Kanye-Kim feud over the summer where I think she prevented a snake emoji from being posted in the comments of her posts. All users have the option to flag certain words or emojis now so they cannot be used in comments... I think. I've never used it, so I don't know exactly how it works, how often people are using it, or how effective it's been. 

Constantine

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3 minutes ago, JetFan1983 said:

Instagram added this feature. I think it was first tested on Taylor Swift after her Kanye-Kim feud over the summer where I think she prevented a snake emoji from being posted in the comments of her posts. All users have the option to flag certain words or emojis now so they cannot be used in comments... I think. I've never used it, so I don't know exactly how it works.  

2016-12-08%2013.17.55.png

Of course, that still places a lot of the burden on the person being bullied.

Part of the "solution" is educating the users. Educate them - or make it easier - for them to block and/or report bullying or bullies.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
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I think she's a sweet lady and she's not hurting anyone. I don't watch her videos and I'm not required to. People let this kind of thing get under their skin? Of all the things to worry about. What an embarrassment.

 

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Just a thought I'd like to throw in here (admitting I haven't read the entire thread).  I know this is a bit pedantic, but the problem with saying "she should expect that" is the connotation of that phrase.

Regardless of the dictionary definition, using the word "expect" connotes some sort of sanction or understanding of the resulting action, and that's why it sounds like victim-blaming.

For example, if an inter-racial couple walks down the street in Russia (one of the most racist places I've ever had the misfortune to experience), I would, unfortunately, anticipate that they'd be subject to some unpleasant looks, comments, or worse.

However, if there was a news story about it, and I said, "They should have expected that!" it sounds like victim-blaming, and no amount of hiding behind the dictionary definition of "expect" is going to change that I sound like a douchebag.

Perfect example (not picking on you in particular, @newtogolf, because this visual cracked me up):

13 hours ago, newtogolf said:

If I posted a picture of myself in a thong I'd expect to get razzed pretty hard about it. 

There is an implicit understanding there that a dude in a thong is something to razz, and that's why "expect" sounds so right in that sentence.

TL;DR: While Paige probably anticipated that her posts would earn her the ire of douchebags, it's still victim-blaming to say she "she should have expected it", due to the connotations of that phrase.

 

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1 hour ago, iacas said:

This is about far more than an athlete or celebrity. The teens committing suicide are not athletes and celebrities.

As I become more and more callous and cynical with how adults act towards each other, the compassion I have for kids and the hope that each generation might become a bit better grows stronger. Don't think I'll ever get used to seeing kids suffer.

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Jon

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41 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

But why keep hammering this issue? Realize that saying "she should have expected it" at BEST comes off as perfectly neutral, and move on. Discuss actual results that can improve the future; don't just tell us the way things are as if there's nothing you can do about it, now or ever.

 

Maybe because I don't think it comes off as neutral at best.  I view telling people (ahead of time) to expect it as education.  It could quite possibly make them more aware of an issue and then they could make steps to lessen the chance it happens to them.  Or at least make them not feel as bad when it does.  They would know that they are not alone in this.

 

I have a few different things to say on helping to solve the issue.  You mentioned censorship.  If someone is posting something on Facebook I thought they could not stand behind the fact that they have free speech.  Correct me if I am wrong, but you (as the owner) can censor whatever you please on this site?  I would think it would be the same on Facebook?

I am not certain how to curb the bullying among children.  At this point, (at least what I see) it is fun or cool for them to tear into each other.  When people get a bit older most of them tend to gravitate away from the jerks.

-Matt-

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18 minutes ago, 14ledo81 said:

Maybe because I don't think it comes off as neutral at best.

Okay. Let's move on. Telling people that they should expect it does nothing to curb it.

19 minutes ago, 14ledo81 said:

I have a few different things to say on helping to solve the issue.  You mentioned censorship.  If someone is posting something on Facebook I thought they could not stand behind the fact that they have free speech.  Correct me if I am wrong, but you (as the owner) can censor whatever you please on this site?  I would think it would be the same on Facebook?

I can, and they can, but that doesn't mean it makes sense for me or Facebook to want to be known as "that site that censors you."

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
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I have strong ideas on these issues that can cross over to other areas.  And do I lean into prevention or just away from problems.

On the golf course, how do I react or receive the dressed for success cart person?

 Do I have a need to point out things to others, both in person and online?

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18 minutes ago, iacas said:

I can, and they can, but that doesn't mean it makes sense for me or Facebook to want to be known as "that site that censors you."

True, but wouldn't that be better than being know as "that site that condones bullying"??

You don't allow it here, and it doesn't seem to hurt the success of this site.  Rather, I find it quite attractive.

-Matt-

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44 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

As I become more and more callous and cynical with how adults act towards each other, the compassion I have for kids and the hope that each generation might become a bit better grows stronger. Don't think I'll ever get used to seeing kids suffer.

This is very well said. 

I have two daughters and you'd never know by looking at them or hearing them talk just how insecure they are. People are very callous anymore and especially on the internet. I am so glad I grew up when I did. I wouldn't trade it to be in my 20s now for anything. 

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