Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

[cipher]

23 minutes ago, iacas said:

You say you could, but you don't.  So that doesn't convince me at all..

My statement is accurate, so I don't need to convince you.    If you won't watch the cartoons or look into the recent supporting material, how could I convince you anyway?  Maybe if I have time in future I will find some clips and material like the one example I quickly found to counter argue each point in one of these links but I don't really see the value in doing so for the time it will require to put together at this moment.  Maybe in a week or two.  If it is more fun for some to see the Star Wars universe that way, that is fine by me, you just won't be right.    I do agree with you on TLJ but FA should have changed that for you with the Hosnian System.  

Edited December 26, 2017 by cipher

[iacas]

9 minutes ago, cipher said:

My statement is accurate, so I don't need to convince you.

That's not how discussions work. You can choose to not want to convince me, but since I have no way of knowing whether your statement is accurate or not… you do have to prove it, yeah. If you want to. I suspect you won't, because you have nothing to gain.

9 minutes ago, cipher said:

If you won't watch the cartoons or look into the recent supporting material, how could I convince you anyway?

By pointing out several of the things that happen, or things that the articles I cited (and others) don't consider or note.

8 minutes ago, cipher said:

If it is more fun for some to see the Star Wars universe that way, that is fine by me, you just won't be right.    I do agree with you on TLJ but FA should have changed that for you with the Hosnian System.  

The Hosnian system was the home of the Republic and the New Republic Starfleet, so, a military installation.

How many millions of people did Holdo kill with her jump through Snoke's ship? I've seen theories that say nobody else does that because it's a war crime. Otherwise, why wouldn't ever battle just be a bunch of ships jumping through other ships. You could build a fleet of ships who had shields and were run by a droid to jump through other bigger ships.

How about each Death Star? Millions of innocent worker lives lost.

I'm not claiming that the Dark Side or Empire is always good. But the Rebels aren't always good either, and have quite a bit of blood on their hands, too.

[cipher]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

That's not how discussions work. You can choose to not want to convince me, but since I have no way of knowing whether your statement is accurate or not… you do have to prove it, yeah. If you want to. I suspect you won't, because you have nothing to gain.

I did not make the original statement, I simply responded to it with mine.  I am yet to see the proof of the first one, just silly click-bait articles that are trendy.  The burden is not on me.

1 hour ago, iacas said:

By pointing out several of the things that happen, or things that the articles I cited (and others) don't consider or note.

I already did some quickly off the top of my mind, listed at five good reasons why, and attached a video showing just one example of genocide and enslavement by the Empire.  I am no expert either, I just know barely enough of the other stuff out there to know it is an exaggerated theory.   

1 hour ago, iacas said:

The Hosnian system was the home of the Republic and the New Republic Starfleet, so, a military installation.

How many millions of people did Holdo kill with her jump through Snoke's ship? I've seen theories that say nobody else does that because it's a war crime. Otherwise, why wouldn't ever battle just be a bunch of ships jumping through other ships. You could build a fleet of ships who had shields and were run by a droid to jump through other bigger ships.

How about each Death Star? Millions of innocent worker lives lost.

I'm not claiming that the Dark Side or Empire is always good. But the Rebels aren't always good either, and have quite a bit of blood on their hands, too.

No, it had a military installation on it.  The Death Star, the ships, those are military installations with military personnel.  

You said, "I’ve read several things that make a very good case for the Empire as the good guys."

I have not been making a case for the Rebels or the Jedi. Only that the Empire and the First Order are not the good guys.  I disagree there is not much of a case for that, and no proof.

Spoiler

Hosnian Prime had been voted the capital of the New Republic,^[3] and hosted individuals from many speciesincluding humans, Wookiees, and Gungans. By that stage, two major factions had emerged in the Senate: the Populists, who wanted worlds to maintain considerable autonomy; and the Centrists, who favored a stronger central government. That year, the senatorial complex was damaged during the Napkin Bombing. The bomb had been planted by Arliz Hadrassian, a former Imperial TIE fighter pilot and Imperial Security Bureau officer who had become the leader of the Amaxine warriors, a militia that served as a front for the First Order, a remnant of the Old Empire.^[3]

 

Edited December 26, 2017 by cipher

[iacas]

1 minute ago, cipher said:

I did not make the original statement, I simply responded to it with mine.  I am yet to see the proof of the first one, just silly click-bait articles that are trendy.  The burden is not on me.

I've linked to several articles, Nate. They each make a case for the Jedi being the "bad guys." There are several more. Some of them also use the cartoons and other things to prove their points.

1 minute ago, cipher said:

No, it had a military installation on it.  The Death Star, the ships, those are military installations with military personnel.  

The Death Star also had scientists, janitors, support staff, cooks, cleaners… all sorts of non-military people on it.

1 minute ago, cipher said:

I have not been making a case for the Rebels or the Jedi. Only that the Empire and the First Order are not the good guys.  I disagree there is not much of a case for that, and no proof.

It's an opinion, so good luck "proving" one way or the other… but the "proof" is in the articles I've posted. And many more that are out there.

I don't care if you argue against it or not. In fact if you're gonna take it as seriously as you seem to be, please don't, because I really couldn't care much less about Star Wars.

[cipher]

38 minutes ago, iacas said:

I've linked to several articles, Nate. They each make a case for the Jedi being the "bad guys."

That wasn't your statement.

38 minutes ago, iacas said:

The Death Star also had scientists, janitors, support staff, cooks, cleaners… all sorts of non-military people on it.

So does a naval ship they are military personnel. 

38 minutes ago, iacas said:

It's an opinion, so good luck "proving" one way or the other… but the "proof" is in the articles I've posted. 

  Sure.

38 minutes ago, iacas said:

I don't care if you argue against it or not. In fact if you're gonna take it as seriously as you seem to be, please don't, because I really couldn't care much less about Star Wars.

I can refrain, that is fine with me.

Edited December 26, 2017 by cipher

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, cipher said:

That wasn't your statement.

I don't even know what "statement" you're talking about, but I think we're taking each other far too seriously. I don't even own a Star Wars movie. I can't tell you Han Solo's middle name or if they've ever said he has one. I barely remember Jar Jar Binks, and have no idea what role he played in the movies except to annoy people. I assure you I'm not taking ANY of this at all "seriously."

I simply said there are articles out there that make the case that the Empire is the "good guys." Conversely the Jedi or Rebels are the "bad guys." I kinda like viewing the movies through that lens. It adds interest for me, a super casual fan.

I'm snowed in and commenting once every few hours with a few lines of commentary. That's not posting a lot. I like discussion and am, again, snowed in and bored. It's pop culture. It's debate. It's something to talk about.

And hey, @mvmac voiced agreement, IIRC, too. And he probably knows a HELLUVA lot more about Star Wars than I do. So if he agrees (IIRC, again), then maybe there's something to it and it's not so obvious or "provable" as you seem to think?

[jmanbooyaa]

Did anyone else think Finn and Rose plot line was useless and did not move the story along at all. 

[saevel25]

Just now, jmanbooyaa said:

Did anyone else think Finn and Rose plot line was useless and did not move the story along at all. 

It moved the characters along. Not every plot line has to be about one singular plot overall. Overall, it made sense. 

Finn and Rose, being young and up with the latest tech knowledge figured out what was most likely the cause for the tracking. They disclosed this information to Poe. They devise a plan to stop the tracker and initiate the plan. The sub-plot worked for these characters. 

[mvmac]

I think for this discussion about the Empire not being as "bad" as it's perceived we have to ignore the content that isn't canon, like the author of the article says.

2 hours ago, iacas said:

I simply said there are articles out there that make the case that the Empire is the "good guys." Conversely the Jedi or Rebels are the "bad guys." I kinda like viewing the movies through that lens. It adds interest for me, a super casual fan.

Right. One thing that has always bugged me about Star Wars is that we're suppose to take Lucas' word for it that the Empire is evil. Sure they wear black, have evil sounding names for things like the Death Star, Star Killer, the Sith, Darth Vader, etc. But we don't really see what it's like to live under the rule of the Empire. Or why the rebels would be so much better if they (the Republic) were in charge because when they were in charge things were messy. Anakin had an oppressive childhood when the Republic was still around. How would the lives of the billions of people living under their rule change? It's not like the Empire enslaves everyone. I could be wrong but it seems like they basically leave each planet to do it's own thing with culture, religion (obviously except Jedi) and commerce.  

I really like that they showed that the rebels and First Order buy their weapons from the same suppliers. Adds a little reality and perspective to the war, no side is 100% good and no side is 100% evil.

Not saying I agree 100% with the article but I like that it questions our "traditional" views of Star Wars. I actually took a class in college that did this with Shakespeare plays and it was one of the best things I did in college.

Yes when it comes to due process, the Empire sucks and it sure isn't a democracy. But this is about managing hundreds (maybe thousands) of worlds with different species, resources and who knows how many beings with their own tribe squabbles. 

2 hours ago, iacas said:

And hey, @mvmac voiced agreement, IIRC, too. And he probably knows a HELLUVA lot more about Star Wars than I do. So if he agrees (IIRC, again), then maybe there's something to it and it's not so obvious or "provable" as you seem to think?

 

With Star Wars, in terms of being a well versed geek I'm pretty low on the totem poll. If anyone wants to discuss anything with Marvel or DC comics then I'm close to a scratch

I really love the mythos of the Star Wars franchise but can get frustrated at the execution. They always seem to do more telling than showing. Part of that is probably due to the medium, just don't have much time to develop story or characters in 2-3 hours and at the end of the day it's suppose to be a fun, space adventure story.

[jmanbooyaa]

The characters were pointless to this movie. It seemed like the director reliased he had to use Finn since he was in the last movie. It felt forced and they decided to give him a love interest. I

[iacas]

25 minutes ago, jmanbooyaa said:

The characters were pointless to this movie. It seemed like the director reliased he had to use Finn since he was in the last movie. It felt forced and they decided to give him a love interest. I

We get it. You didn't like it.

I thought the Finn/Rose stuff was fine. Could have been done better, could have been ditched. But maybe Finn is important for IX, and so they had to keep him around a bit.

I don't know.

[jmanbooyaa]

This is true. I have see it 3 times now and there are scenes that were better upon multiple viewings however my feelings towards the movie have not changed. I disagree with how characters were played. Hopefully 9 brings it home and Disney can go off and make more Star Wars movies and not revolve the Skywalkers 

Edited December 27, 2017 by jmanbooyaa

[GolfLug]

 @mvmacI am probably a 20 hcp of Star Wars but I think both Kylo Ren and Rey's internal conflict depicted seem to suggest the blurred lines between good and evil. As nothing is absolute one way or the other. 

But obviously what makes good or evil is not of great (would life under the empire really be that bad or even different?) Importance IMO. I guess I agree at the end of the day it's a just a symbolic battle.

I have to say, the last three SWs have been a fun spectacle. Both my 8 year old and I couldn't get over how cool KR's electrically crackling red light sabre was. Wild! Loved it.

[Gator Hazard]

23 hours ago, saevel25 said:

I think it's the ends justify the means mentality. 

There is something inherently wrong for punishing an entire planet for the acts of a few people. Is the entire planet of Alderaan conspiring, or is it just a small group from that planet? They never explain that at all. It could be true. I doubt there were no innocent people on that planet. Did they deserve to die just because they happen to live there? 

If a person beliefs in absolute obedience and that any sort of punishment, even death is warranted, then sure the definition of evil gets pushed further away from what most would consider it to be. 

I don't buy these type of arguments. They can be made, but its basically a philosophical question. 

I would think the main reason is that there  was a republic that was overthrown by an evil dictator who usurps all of the resources? Blows up cities and planets, murders people, etc. I’ll admit I did not read all the stuff on why the empire are the good guys, but those things stuck in my mind as making them not good. 

What I find hilarious is that we have a small band of rebels fight and win against the odds in numbers 4-6, only to do what? Become suckers who lose control of the assets and resources to allow the exact same things to happen again!!! They again are left with old crappy equipment to try and beat the big guys with all the cool stuff?  Seems odd for people who can make neat spaceships that they are still pretty stupid when it comes to trust and power and governing. 

I have to digest and see this recent offering again. Right now I  ho-hum on it, and it’s not because of how they shafted Luke or anything like that. It moved slowly for a Star Wars movie. I’m kind of over the over use of cheeky witty humor as well. I like some well placed snark or the odd comment st the right time but lately they seem to be written with too many of those. 

I found the “hey we have a few hours, let’s fly down to a planet where there is a casino that has a gambler with a lapel. Find that person and talk them into helping us out” thing to be a little of a stretch as well. 

All in all it was entertaining, offered some new things, story lines, conflicts of good vs evil, but I just didn’t like as much as some other offerings. Honestly have watched Rogue One a few more times with my young son and really appreciating that one a lot more. Maybe with time my opinion on this one will change too

[saevel25]

5 minutes ago, Gator Hazard said:

I would think the main reason is that there  was a republic that was overthrown by an evil dictator who usurps all of the resources? Blows up cities and planets, murders people, etc. I’ll admit I did not read all the stuff on why the empire are the good guys, but those things stuck in my mind as making them not good. 

What I find hilarious is that we have a small band of rebels fight and win against the odds in numbers 4-6, only to do what? Become suckers who lose control of the assets and resources to allow the exact same things to happen again!!! They again are left with old crappy equipment to try and beat the big guys with all the cool stuff?  Seems odd for people who can make neat spaceships that they are still pretty stupid when it comes to trust and power and governing. 

It was a bit more complicated than that.

The galaxy was ruled in sections by people the Emperor hand selected. They probably tried to keep their rule over their territory. It would be extremely hard for the resistance/rebels to unify the galaxy. The emperor disbanded the senate. There is no unifying government around at the end of episode 6.

The books explain how a lot of the military factions fled towards the unknown regions. Jakuu was a planet were a big battle was fought between the rebels and the remnants. It was Snoke who unified all the military leaders into the First Order. The empire still had their military complex. The rebels had their connections to help fund them under the table. Its till hard to compete when the First Order still has all the good connections to rebuild much faster and better. 

 

[Gator Hazard]

11 hours ago, nevets88 said:

 

Hilarious!

[mvmac]

5 hours ago, jmanbooyaa said:

Did anyone else think Finn and Rose plot line was useless and did not move the story along at all. 

Not saying I agree with this, just sharing,

https://www.cbr.com/star-wars-facebook-defends-rose-tico/

Quote

In response, the Facebook account commented: “Prevented four Resistance deserters from stealing escape pods. Assisted in the formation of a plan that would’ve allowed the Resistance to escape the First Order pursuit. Persuaded a fathier stable boy to enable her and Finn’s escape from Canto Bight. Conducted an essential survey of available supplies available to the Resistance on Crait. Saved Finn from an inconsequential course of action that would’ve ended his life. For a character who did absolutely nothing, that’s impressive… most impressive.”

It added: “Personal growth is inherent to every Star Wars story. Without the detour to Canto Bight, Finn wouldn’t have grown past only caring about himself and his immediate circle of friends. And Rose wouldn’t have discovered her own ability to be the type of hero she idolized.”

The Finn/Rose story wasn't the highlight of the film but it did serve a purpose. It's also kind of a Star Wars theme that a "nobody" like Rose can rise to the occasion and make an impact.

 

[Gator Hazard]

21 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

It was a bit more complicated than that.

The galaxy was ruled in sections by people the Emperor hand selected. They probably tried to keep their rule over their territory. It would be extremely hard for the resistance/rebels to unify the galaxy. The emperor disbanded the senate. There is no unifying government around at the end of episode 6.

The books explain how a lot of the military factions fled towards the unknown regions. Jakuu was a planet were a big battle was fought between the rebels and the remnants. It was Snoke who unified all the military leaders into the First Order. The empire still had their military complex. The rebels had their connections to help fund them under the table. Its till hard to compete when the First Order still has all the good connections to rebuild much faster and better. 

 

I’m sure. But the first three episodes pretty much give a lay of the land that the people of these different areas had representation (if we were not to believe what we heard in 4-6 and didn’t want to take their word that the Jedi and Senate were good people). And seemed to have a voice that was heard.  It appeared that their leaders cared for them and wanted peace for them.

I mean, if Star Wars movies are written for people who are trying to get PhDs in Star Wars theory then I could more easily digest a discussion on why the empire may not be evil. But I think the idea behind these movies has always been based on a mass appeal to the audience, to the base, core values that beings who can think and rationalize should hold. I think Lucas himself may have referenced the book “The Hero With a Thousand Faces” as an inspiration and 4-6 certainly follow the cycle. 

I can appreciate how they would be in a better position to rebuild and maintain power. Thank you for that good piece of info!

Edited December 27, 2017 by Gator Hazard