Show some love to the 9-hole and executive

[Blackjack Don]

Aren't the easiest holes on a course usually short par 4's and par 5's? It assumes one has the driver to put the ball where one can reach the green with a fairway wood at least some of the time on the par 5's. I think this backs up the stats that show "drive for show, putt for dough" was wrong. You got to get there to sink a putt. I can make two foot putts about as often as a pro, but not going to get within a country mile of a pro off a par 5 tee. Between us is about 20 shots. How many of those are driver/wood? And how many are penalties for failure to execute?

[No Mulligans]

31 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

I would think that might speak to length rather than par. Again, simple math says that to be around average on par 4's, one needs to hit a drive of 60% of the hole to have a decent chance at being on in two. An average 400 yard hole requires a drive of 240 yards, leaving 160 to the green. The longer the second shot, the less often one is going to find the green. That's easy enough. The longer the hole, the more important the tee shot. It might seem like par 3's are easier for high hcp players, but the reality is they are hitting second shots, not tee shots. The closer to the hole, the easier. 

Do you mean easier compared to par 5's? Is that because of the required driver distance to the par 5's? Given your stats, I'm guessing your driver carry is around 200. This is the only way the statement makes sense. Frankly, I can't hit it far enough to make second shots easier--assuming it goes straight.

Plus, we all know that it is easier to make progress pitching, chipping and putting than medium and long irons. The amount of time it takes to develop a long game to reverse those stats is prohibitive for most of us. I don't know if we've put enough thought into what constitutes a good game of golf for those of us who will never break 80? The maths tell me I may never come close to it. We all want to talk about our good scores, but some of us will never have one to brag about--without even knowing why. We simply do not have enough gas to get to the green.

My driver stats, that average includes a lot of poorly struck shots.  When I hit it well I'm at 240, my longest on the illustration was 284 and I have a bunch around 250.  The par 4 isn't too hard it I hit a good drive around 240 (I'd define a good shot with my driver as around 240 or more).  Now I have sday 160 left, a 6 iron from most of the time a less than perfect lie, but certainly worse than when I tee it up on a flat lie in the tee box of a par 3.

 

24 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

Par threes are easiest (relative to par) for higher handicappers because they give them fewer chances to screw up.

Par threes are hardest (relative to par) for lower handicappers because they give them fewer chances to recover.

(Generally speaking, of course.)

 

This (the above quote) is what I was trying to point out in my previous post

[Kalnoky]

On 2/4/2017 at 2:41 PM, SavvySwede said:

I don't think a 9 hole course should be compared to an executive.

Agreed. The exec courses I sometimes play are pretty nice. They have several Par-4 holes, elevation changes and hazards. They have an official course rating and slope too. 

[CarlSpackler]

16 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

Aren't the easiest holes on a course usually short par 4's and par 5's? It assumes one has the driver to put the ball where one can reach the green with a fairway wood at least some of the time on the par 5's. I think this backs up the stats that show "drive for show, putt for dough" was wrong. You got to get there to sink a putt. I can make two foot putts about as often as a pro, but not going to get within a country mile of a pro off a par 5 tee. Between us is about 20 shots. How many of those are driver/wood? And how many are penalties for failure to execute?

That all depends on how well they are protected. A short 4 with a creek in front of the green or a lake down one side, not so much. A course back in my home town has a par 5 where the tee shot is wide open with only bunkers to the right and left. The approach shot gets much tighter as there is a creek that runs down the right side with woods on the other side, and there is pretty thick woods down the left. Even if you bomb a drive on this hole, you really want to think twice before going for it. 

[Blackjack Don]

Yes, and the difference between a driver, a hybrid, a six iron and a wedge are huge! So the difference between a 20 handicapper and a scratch is the amateur has many more chances, with much longer clubs, which means even more chances, which add up. WE know about missed shots, but the distance, I believe is kind of a hidden factor. Add to it our love of exaggerating our distances, and well--you know.

I was talking to a lady yesterday who plays on a regular course. She hits her driver and three wood about the same, she said. A hundred fifty. (Probably a bit overstated, too.) What chance does this woman ever have of making three pars a round? All on par 3's, I reckon.

[No Mulligans]

6 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

Yes, and the difference between a driver, a hybrid, a six iron and a wedge are huge! So the difference between a 20 handicapper and a scratch is the amateur has many more chances, with much longer clubs, which means even more chances, which add up. WE know about missed shots, but the distance, I believe is kind of a hidden factor. Add to it our love of exaggerating our distances, and well--you know.

I was talking to a lady yesterday who plays on a regular course. She hits her driver and three wood about the same, she said. A hundred fifty. (Probably a bit overstated, too.) What chance does this woman ever have of making three pars a round? All on par 3's, I reckon.

Yeah, it would be really rare for that lady to ever par anything but a short par three.

With GameGolf stats there is no exageration, one can simple show data.  Are you aware of how GameGolf works?  It marks each shot while playing with club used and a GPS location, then develops stats from that.  For example say one hits a 250 yard drive and then hits a second shot with a 7 iron 150 to the green.  Game golf knows the GPS location of the tee shot and the GPS location of the second shot with the 7 iron (and all shots for that matter).  From that it calculates the distance of all your shots.

[Blackjack Don]

2 minutes ago, CarlSpackler said:

Even if you bomb a drive on this hole, you really want to think twice before going for it. 

And this is from someone who has a chance of doing this. Me? About 5%? If I do everything to my max. I hit my 3 wood much better than my driver, but twenty yards shorter. So when someone tells me forget the driver, hit the three wood, I am thinking "what's the difference between this and any other idea?" If you can't hit a driver, the game changes for you. You can't succeed. Yeah, personal success and improvement. Right.

Have you guys ever heard of Tae Kwon Leap? I've got the pajamas! I want to kick some ass!

Anyone who can't accept this is the underlying motivation doesn't understand what Mark Twain meant when he said it was a good walk spoiled. 

And the next person who uses Jim Furyk as the one and only exception which disproves the rule, gets it. It's called an outlier. Unless it's me that's the outlier, but we don't hear from them very often, do we here?

I wouldn't have played a nine hole course before. I wanted to be a real golfer. I've changed my mind.

My uncle sold his clubs when he couldn't drive 250. That's seems a shame to me. He really loved breaking par.

4 minutes ago, No Mulligans said:

Are you aware of how GameGolf works?

You missed the part where I said I forget to tap. I concentrate pretty hard, and forget to start the process. Or I'm forgetful. Both could be correct.

 

[No Mulligans]

Furyk only looks to be an outlier, but he has a steady head, good swing plane on the downswing (in to out), gets his weight forward on the downswing, has inline impact, and has good club head directional control.  Just like all good golfers.

[CarlSpackler]

11 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

And this is from someone who has a chance of doing this. Me? About 5%? If I do everything to my max. I hit my 3 wood much better than my driver, but twenty yards shorter. So when someone tells me forget the driver, hit the three wood, I am thinking "what's the difference between this and any other idea?" If you can't hit a driver, the game changes for you. You can't succeed. Yeah, personal success and improvement. Right.

Have you guys ever heard of Tae Kwon Leap? I've got the pajamas! I want to kick some ass!

Anyone who can't accept this is the underlying motivation doesn't understand what Mark Twain meant when he said it was a good walk spoiled. 

And the next person who uses Jim Furyk as the one and only exception which disproves the rule, gets it. It's called an outlier. Unless it's me that's the outlier, but we don't hear from them very often, do we here?

I wouldn't have played a nine hole course before. I wanted to be a real golfer. I've changed my mind.

My uncle sold his clubs when he couldn't drive 250. That's seems a shame to me. He really loved breaking par.

You missed the part where I said I forget to tap. I concentrate pretty hard, and forget to start the process. Or I'm forgetful. Both could be correct.

 

On the hole I referenced, a high 'capper is best to think of this as a four shot hole. Have a rip at it from the tee because you can't get into much trouble. A few 7i shots from there and you should be short of the green where you can still possibly get up and down for a par, but you've taken the big number away by not hitting a 3w into the creek/woods. I was a 20+ back when I played this course a lot. 

Back on topic though, 3s just seem to be the hardest for me to get a par. If it's a shorter 3, it's often surrounded by bunkers or a water hazard. If it's a longer 3, your chance of hitting the green is greatly reduced. In our league, we would have closest to the pin bets on 3s. The longer ones were usually a push. If you landed anywhere on the green, there was a good chance that you would win. It was usually a better player that would win on a longer hole. On the shorter ones, there was a pretty good distribution between the better and not so better players winning the bet. Quite a few people would hit the green and it was a matter of where the hole was cut.

[Big C]

I've got tons of love for executive courses. There were 3 of them in Long Beach (Heartwell, Bixby and "Little Rec" Park) and that is where my high school buddies and I logged almost all of our rounds learning the game. 

At that time, they made the game seem inviting to us. We were usually able to play for under $10 and we were surrounded by guys in jeans and t-shirts, most of whom drank lots of lite beer and didn't give us a hard time if we had to take a mulligan or take a few extra shots to get out of a bunker. If I didn't have access to those courses when I was younger, I probably would have played a lot less golf. 

These days, I don't get to play Little Rec or Bixby too much. But I still have a soft spot for Heartwell, an 18 hole par 54, where the longest hole is 140 yards. It's got lights and it's open until 10pm. So after I put the kids to bed around 8:15, I still have time to scratch my golf itch. Twice in the past 6 months, I've been able to run over there with 3 clubs, 2 balls and a divot repair tool. By 8:35, I'm teeing off and by 9:45, I'm getting back in my car and headed home. It's a great opportunity to work on your short game under real "scoring" conditions.

[rehmwa]

A local course re built their exec 9 hole course (par 27) last year and I finally just decided to kill a lunch hour and play it at the end of the season.  Very nice, pretty and challenging holes - And, really, it's super nice and they did a great job with it.

, but in the end this is what I think:

1 - I got to hit 9 full swings, or long pitchy shots, from a tee box

2 - the rest was chipping and/or putting practice

3 - for that, it cost me $15.  For that price, I could have gone to the range for $8 and hit 70 full swings or pitches.  Then I could have chipped and putted to my heart's content at the practice green.

I did find about 15 balls along the edges and the water.  and lost a hybrid head cover.

So I ended up hitting a lot less, and it only cost me twice as much for a nice walk in the woods.

but I can cross that little course off the 'played' list and not revisit it again. 

so I got that going for me, which is nice.

 

 

Actually - in small town Iowa where I learned, I played constantly at the only local course - par 34 9 hole course.

I played it a few years ago (after decades away from there) and I'd call it a very short 9 hole course.  I must have played 27 holes a day 5 days a week over two summers when I was 14/15 years old.

[iacas]

4 hours ago, Blackjack Don said:

Aren't the easiest holes on a course usually short par 4's and par 5's?

For good golfers. For newer players, they're often the par threes.

4 hours ago, Blackjack Don said:

I was talking to a lady yesterday who plays on a regular course. She hits her driver and three wood about the same, she said. A hundred fifty. (Probably a bit overstated, too.) What chance does this woman ever have of making three pars a round? All on par 3's, I reckon.

So? What's the problem?

[RandallT]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

For good golfers. For newer players, they're often the par threes.

Agreed, from my anecdotal sample set of a bunch of us TST bogey golfers here (26 rounds averaged about 96 or so), the par 3's were the easiest of the types of holes. Collectively we played them at 4.1 each.

Par 4's were 5.5. Par 5's were 6.3.

"Fewer shots for us to mess up" makes sense to me.

[MichaelViolence]

When I lived in Hollywood it was always nice to get out to the Los Feliz par 3 course. I grew up on my families 18 hole par 3 course so I will always have love for the shorties. Desert Mountain (my home club) is finally building a par 3 course!

[dove694]

I just spent the last few months working in the Miami area and was excited to bring my clubs for a little winter golfing. I had the chance to play a lot of great courses (Doral, Biltmore, Miami Beach to name a few), but the one that kept me coming back was a 9-hole gem called Granada in Coral Gables. It was a Par 36, ~3000 yards with small elevated greens and a couple of fantastic Par 5's. Such a fun course to play! I enjoyed it every time!

[Buckeyebowman]

Before this thread veered seriously OT, and devolved into a discussion of the relative merits of short Par 4's and Par 3's, it was to sing the praises of the shorter courses. Allow me to attempt to bring it back.

Last year, out of the blue, my buddy calls me from a little 9 holer called Hidden Oaks, which I hadn't played in a bazillion years, since it was called Dick Williams Memorial. When I was first starting to play golf my Dad would take me there. This was about 50 years ago. I now thought it somehow "beneath" me. Too short, greens too flat and uninteresting. No challenge. I couldn't have been more wrong!

You can get in just as much trouble, and have just as much enjoyment, there as anywhere!

We still have a few of these places around, but their health is questionable. I'm hoping that some of them can continue to hang on and even thrive. They are decidedly casual affairs, where guys show up in tank tops, cargo shorts and tennies to play. And something I noticed at Hidden Oaks was how many husband/wife combos showed up.

[Bucki1968]

One of the nicest golf courses I have every played is a 9 hole course in New Buffalo (I think) Michigan. It's called the Dunes and is very hard to get on. The holes have two different sets of tees so you can play each hole differently than the last time. No tee markers. Hit from where you want to. It's a great golf course. 

[ebaz]

^{In the early years of my golfing as I traveled between states for business, I honed my skills at both Dominguez Hills (R.I.P) in Carson CA and Lakes @ Awatukee  in AZ.. Executives are great.}