Lexi Thompson's 4 Stroke Penalty at the ANA

[iacas]

Just now, RH31 said:

Iacas, is that you saying Phil is full of it or someone else's quote?

Me. And Dave. I've been to a lot of tournaments, I've officiated at some, and I've never seen someone mis-marking by two or three inches.

Phil sometimes says things. Maybe he has one or two people in mind, but I can't believe it's anything widespread at all.

11 minutes ago, chilepepper said:

b. I think the LPGA handled it poorly

How else could they have handled it? They handled it as well as they could have IMO.

[rpsetser]

50 minutes ago, David in FL said:

I'm assuming that you haven't read through the previous 535 posts, many of which discuss that particular analogy, and explain in detail why it simply doesn't pertain...

I'm not picking, I know it's a lot of material, but there really is some good info to be had there.   

No.  I didn't read the other posts.  I usually read the original post, maybe 5-10 of the replies and then post myself.  I've read more since your post, and I agree.  There is some good information here.  Based on the video, I think the only mistake that Lexi made was marking her ball from the side.  You can tell that she is standing beside her ball, rather than behind it.  Only she knows if what she did was intentional, but after watching the video, I can see how marking the ball from the side makes it difficult to line it back up exactly like it was to start with.  I have no idea why she didn't just mark it from directly behind...who knows?

[1badbadger]

1 hour ago, Lihu said:

 

 

 

 

I hate to be "that guy", but I think this video clearly does illustrate a violation...but it has nothing to do with marking the ball.  All three of those kids were clearly in violation of the dress code.  I don't think they can be assessed a penalty for this, but the last time I tried to tee off in my jammies I was asked to leave the premises.  

[Braivo]

After sleeping on this issue, and subsequently removing some emotion from the analysis, I now think it was handled fairly and nothing should change. In fact, I find myself doubting a bit whether or not it was intentional or Lexi actually knew she did it. She's quite young and I know at that age I would have been tempted to subscribe to the "no harm, no foul" faux virtue. 

In fact, I think reinstating the DQ for an incorrect scorecard may be prudent as such things should have consequences, irregardless of intent. 

[Lihu]

15 minutes ago, 1badbadger said:

I hate to be "that guy", but I think this video clearly does illustrate a violation...but it has nothing to do with marking the ball.  All three of those kids were clearly in violation of the dress code.  I don't think they can be assessed a penalty for this, but the last time I tried to tee off in my jammies I was asked to leave the premises.  

Very strange, because I wouldn't think your "jammies" would be much different than these:

 

 

 

 

[David in FL]

2 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Very strange, because I wouldn't think your "jammies" would be much different than these:

 

 

 

 

Yeah, they probably shouldn't have been allowed on the course either!  

[HitAndGiggle]

Wow...this thread went sideways. I'm even seeing race being brought up(?) What tha...? Anyway. Myself - I'm a bit on-the-fence on this particular incident. In finally watching through the end of the tournament last night I couldn't help but think that there should be some sort of statute of limitations. See an infraction? Report it by the end of the day it occurred - for just one example. I also had a somewhat strange concern that this will lead to more armchair refs out there just scrutinizing every little thing they see on tv, ready to phone it in. People are weird like that.

I was impressed by Lexi's performance after the dust up. She hung in there and continued to play very well. Many of the ladies really played well. Fun tourney to watch. I'm sure they'll be talking about that 4-stroke penalty for years.

[Missouri Swede]

2 minutes ago, HitAndGiggle said:

In finally watching through the end of the tournament last night I couldn't help but think that there should be some sort of statute of limitations.

Already brought up and answered:  There is.  The end of the tournament.

[iacas]

16 minutes ago, HitAndGiggle said:

… I couldn't help but think that there should be some sort of statute of limitations.

This:

12 minutes ago, Missouri Swede said:

Already brought up and answered:  There is.  The end of the tournament.

And…

16 minutes ago, HitAndGiggle said:

I also had a somewhat strange concern that this will lead to more armchair refs out there just scrutinizing every little thing they see on tv, ready to phone it in. People are weird like that.

Why would that change? It's been happening since at least 1987. There are a few of these each year.

16 minutes ago, HitAndGiggle said:

I'm sure they'll be talking about that 4-stroke penalty for years.

We barely ever talk about Tiger's penalty at the 2013 Masters… except when something else like this comes up.

[HitAndGiggle]

19 minutes ago, iacas said:

This:

And…

Why would that change? It's been happening since at least 1987. There are a few of these each year.

We barely ever talk about Tiger's penalty at the 2013 Masters… except when something else like this comes up.

Well, you're right and I'm wrong.

[iacas]

Add Wayne DeFrancesco to the growing list of people who think she cheated:

I'm still on the side of giving the benefit of the doubt, but it's no longer without pause.

[RH31]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

This:

And…

Why would that change? It's been happening since at least 1987. There are a few of these each year.

We barely ever talk about Tiger's penalty at the 2013 Masters… except when something else like this comes up.

Ummm...because people just found out that you can wait a day or two, call in an infraction at the start of a final round or later and create havoc. Some quackos get a kick out of stuff like that. 

[Braivo]

14 minutes ago, iacas said:

Add Wayne DeFrancesco to the growing list of people who think she cheated:

I'm still on the side of giving the benefit of the doubt, but it's no longer without pause.

I watched this video and have similar thoughts. What is also telling is that she didn't ask to see any footage herself. Now, maybe she did after the round, but it seems to me that her reaction after being told about the penalty wasn't nearly angry enough if she thought she'd been truly wronged. Perhaps she knew what she had done and was disappointed to have been caught. 

I used to volunteer at a senior tour event and I remember one of the caddies (I think) saying that in heavy rough the ball oscillates when you put your club behind it, but that is just accepted as "normal" on tour and no one gives it a thought. Maybe the harsh reaction from tour players is because they all do similar things and are frustrated that one of them got caught. 

[RH31]

14 minutes ago, iacas said:

Add Wayne DeFrancesco to the growing list of people who think she cheated:

I'm still on the side of giving the benefit of the doubt, but it's no longer without pause.

I don't understand why so many are hell bent on accusing her of cheating. She's the only one that will ever know if it was on purpose.

Labeling someone a cheater on what could've been an honest mistake....they better hope they don't goof up when someone's watching...Karma can be a nasty bitch.

[WestKyGolfer]

One thing is certain, there will be some pretty tight ball marking in the next few weeks.

[iacas]

13 minutes ago, RH31 said:

Ummm...because people just found out that you can wait a day or two, call in an infraction at the start of a final round or later and create havoc. Some quackos get a kick out of stuff like that. 

Simple solution: don't breach any rules.

"Call-in viewers" only punish those who:

• Breach the rules.
• Don't include the penalty on their scorecards.

So who cares when they call in? Is it better for the player if they call in before they sign their scorecard? Obviously. But the player is not the victim here. The player is the perpetrator. The player is the one who failed to do what they're required to do.

2 minutes ago, RH31 said:

I don't understand why so many are hell bent on accusing her of cheating. She's the only one that will ever know if it was on purpose.

Uhhh… perhaps because they think she cheated. And if she did, she should have been DQed.

2 minutes ago, RH31 said:

Labeling someone a cheater on what could've been an honest mistake....they better hope they don't goof up when someone's watching...Karma can be a nasty bitch.

It can be. But what if they're right? Then the negative karma owed is looking for Lexi…

[JetFan1983]

2 hours ago, Braivo said:

After sleeping on this issue, and subsequently removing some emotion from the analysis, I now think it was handled fairly and nothing should change. In fact, I find myself doubting a bit whether or not it was intentional or Lexi actually knew she did it. She's quite young and I know at that age I would have been tempted to subscribe to the "no harm, no foul" faux virtue. 

In fact, I think reinstating the DQ for an incorrect scorecard may be prudent as such things should have consequences, irregardless of intent. 

One of the best things I've read in a while. People who say "no one will change their opinion" were wrong. And I think more people than just you have come around on this after participating/reading much of this thread and letting the opposition view point marinate in their heads for a couple days. 

Speaking from my perspective specifically on what Lexi did, I know full well when I replace my ball an inch to the left or right of where it should be. I just know. Maybe I'm more mentally in tune with my surroundings than other people, or maybe I have a really hardcore conscience, but unfortunately, I know full well when I myself have replaced a ball incorrectly, and for me, there are no excuses like "I was tired" or "it was an honest mistake." Unfortunately for me, I'm well aware of what I'm doing in this situation at all times. If video ever surfaced of me doing what Lexi did, I would be guilty as charged. It would have been intentional...

...Because I understand the temptation that comes with a simple ball mark. I can clearly see when crouching that a certain spike mark or indentation right at the start of my line will or might effect my putt, and I can hear that little devil in my head telling me softly that no one will notice if I put the ball an inch over here instead. It's something I've taught myself to never do after having gotten away with it once or twice in my early golfing days. Yes, I cheated. It was wrong. I realize there is no excuse, but it was during casual, weekend rounds with no money or competition going. It was back when I was new to the game and could barely break 100. It was at a time when I had no perspective on the game and no one to teach me that what I did was wrong.

Of course, as I've grown as a golfer, having learned a significant amount about the game and its true spirit, I have never done it since that first year of playing. But I still get that little devil sometimes in my head. But instead of giving in, I usually just bitch out loud to my playing partners that there's a stupid bump right on my line.

My point is, I get this temptation fully, have given into it, and therefore understand how easy it is to justify to one's conscience.

Now, did she actually cheat? I cannot say that for sure. I don't know what's going on her head. The fact that she marked the ball from the side gives her some benefit of the doubt. What hurts her cause though (and others have said this as well) is that she didn't mark it, walk away, watch others putt for a few minutes, then came back to replace it. She marked it, picked up, and then put back down again without walking away. 

Again, I'm not saying definitively that she cheated, but it is very questionable, and at the very least, the penalties she incurred are justified.

2 hours ago, HitAndGiggle said:

Wow...this thread went sideways. I'm even seeing race being brought up(?) What tha...?

Yea as far as this goes, initially I did see a racial component to people's reactions between this and the Chella Choi situation, but as I thought about it more, I realized that this is a questionable connection to make. First of all, @Golfingdad was one of the people who was indirectly called out on this, and he's one of the nicest, most well spoken guys you'll ever meet. So this made me rethink the racial aspect.

As similar as the Chella Choi and Lexi situations were, they were also remarkably different. For one, the Chella incident was witnessed live by virtually no one. Everyone reacted to that largely after the fact and before the next round started. Lexi's situation however occurred live for many viewers, and to top it off, it was during the final round of a major, nearly 24 hours later, and with only six holes left.

That is a major, major difference, and so I completely get why the reactions were different. If an Asian player had been in Lexi's shoes, having been informed of a four shot penalty because of an infraction the previous day, with only six holes left, I think mostly everyone would've flipped out just the same. 

1 hour ago, HitAndGiggle said:

Well, you're right and I'm wrong.

Don't take it personally, but yes.

 

PS- One final note on the incorrect scorecard: I've never understood more what a brilliant rule that is until this Lexi situation. That rule is basically in place to enforce that the players read and know the rules of golf. It's there to tell you that you can't blame ignorance over a penalty. It's shocking how many tour pros don't understand that THEY are the referee, and that the rules officials available to them are only there to assist them in making the correct ruling. I hope they never give in to public pressure and change that rule, and frankly, I get now why disqualification was once the norm for this rules breach. 

PPS- Still a Lexi fan. We all make mistakes. 

Edited April 5, 2017 by JetFan1983

[Golfingdad]

2 minutes ago, JetFan1983 said:

One of the best things I've read in a while. People who say "no one will change their opinion" were wrong. And I think more people than just you have come around on this after participating/reading much of this thread and letting the opposition view point marinate in their heads for a couple days. 

Speaking from my perspective specifically on what Lexi did, I know full well when I replace my ball an inch to the left or right of where it should be. I just know. Maybe I'm more mentally in tune with my surroundings than other people, or maybe I have a really hardcore conscience, but unfortunately, I know full well when I myself have replaced a ball incorrectly, and for me, there are no excuses like "I was tired" or "it was an honest mistake." Unfortunately for me, I'm well aware of what I'm doing in this situation at all times. If video ever surfaced of me doing what Lexi did, I would be guilty as charged. It would have been intentional...

...Because I understand the temptation that comes with a simple ball mark. I can clearly see when crouching that a certain spike mark or indentation right at the start of my line will or might effect my putt, and I can hear that little devil in my head telling me softly that no one will notice if I put the ball an inch over here instead. It's something I've taught myself to never do after having gotten away with it once or twice in my early golfing days. Yes, I cheated. But it was during casual, weekend rounds with no money or competition going. It was back when I was new to the game and could barely break 100. It was at time I had no perspective on the game and no one to teach me that what I did was wrong.

Of course, as I've grown as a golfer, having learned a significant amount about the game and its true spirit, I have never done it since that first year of playing. But I still get that little devil sometimes in my head. But instead of giving in, I usually just bitch out loud to my playing partners that there's a stupid bump right on my line.

My point is, I get this temptation fully, have given into it, and therefore understand how easy it is to justify to one's conscience.

Now, did she actually cheat? I cannot say that for sure. I don't know what's going on her head. The fact that she marked the ball from the side gives her some benefit of the doubt. What hurts her cause though (and others have said this as well) is that she didn't mark it, walk away, watch others putt for a few minutes, then came back to replace it. She marked it, picked up, and then put back down again without walking away. 

Again, I'm not saying definitively that she cheated, but it is very questionable, and at the very least, the penalties she incurred are justified.

Yea as far as this goes, initially I did see a racial component to people's reactions between this and the Chella Choi situation, but as I thought about it more, I realized that this is a questionable connection to make. First of all, @Golfingdad was one of the people who was indirectly called out on this, and he's one of the nicest, well spoken guys you'll ever meet. So this made me rethink the racial aspect.

As similar as the Chella Choi and Lexi situations were, they were also remarkably different. For one, the Chella incident was witnessed live by virtually no one. Everyone reacted to that largely after the fact and before the next round started. Lexi's situation however occurred live for many viewers, and to top it off, it was during the final round of a major, nearly 24 hours later, and with only six holes left.

That is a major, major difference, and so I completely get why the reactions were different. If an Asian player had been in Lexi's shoes, having been informed of a four shot penalty because of an infraction the previous day, with only six holes left, I think mostly everyone would've flipped out just the same. 

Don't take it personally, but yes.

 

PS- One final note on the incorrect scorecard: I've never understood more what a brilliant rule that is until this Lexi situation. That rule is basically in place to enforce that the players read and know the rules of golf. It's there to tell you that you can't blame ignorance over a penalty. It's shocking how many tour pros don't understand that THEY are the referee, and that the rules officials available to them are only there to assist them in making the correct ruling. I hope they never give in to public pressure and change that rule, and frankly, I get now why disqualification was once the norm for this rules breach. 

PPS- Still a Lexi fan. We all make mistakes. 

Great post.  (Don't agree with all of it by any means, , but great nonetheless)