Lexi Thompson's 4 Stroke Penalty at the ANA

[Hategolf]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

 

The person who failed in his or her responsibility here was Lexi Thompson.

 

Indeed. Because the LPGA/PGA  does not want to oversee the players therefore IMO doing a poor job. 

[krupa]

1 minute ago, Hategolf said:

Indeed. Because the LPGA/PGA  does not want to oversee the players therefore IMO doing a poor job. 

Seriously!?

Quote

6-1. Rules

The player and his caddie are responsible for knowing the Rules. During a stipulated round, for any breach of a Rule by his caddie, the player incurs the applicable penalty.

 

[iacas]

1 minute ago, Hategolf said:

Indeed. Because the LPGA/PGA  does not want to oversee the players therefore IMO doing a poor job. 

No, because the Rules of Golf put the responsibility of following the rules on the players themselves.

ROs exist primarily to assist, not to oversee.

[Hategolf]

2 minutes ago, krupa said:

Seriously!?

 

Yes. Care to explain your astonishment? 

[Braivo]

14 minutes ago, iacas said:

Again, @Braivo, just go read the rules.

We have a clear line now: it's when you sign your card and "leave the scoring area."

I will do so in my spare time. Wait, nevermind, I use that time to post on here. 

Then that "line" should work both ways. Once that scorecard is signed, and perhaps an official should sign it as well, then that round is in the books for good. No going back. 

[Hategolf]

4 minutes ago, iacas said:

No, because the Rules of Golf put the responsibility of following the rules on the players themselves.

ROs exist primarily to assist, not to oversee.

Sorry I should use the multi quote...working on that. 

I understand, and that is where I believe there is an issue. 

[krupa]

1 minute ago, Hategolf said:

Yes. Care to explain your astonishment? 

Well, @iacas said it pretty well...

7 minutes ago, iacas said:

the Rules of Golf put the responsibility of following the rules on the players themselves.

ROs exist primarily to assist, not to oversee.

This is not a new idea to professional golfers.

[iacas]

5 minutes ago, Hategolf said:

I understand, and that is where I believe there is an issue. 

There's no issue except that Lexi didn't honor her responsibility. She brain farted (or whatever).

6 minutes ago, Braivo said:

I will do so in my spare time. Wait, nevermind, I use that time to post on here.

Look, take this the best way possible, because it's how I'm saying it… don't you think there's at least a little obligation to know a bit more about the topic of discussion before weighing in?

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html

6 minutes ago, Braivo said:

Then that "line" should work both ways. Once that scorecard is signed, and perhaps an official should sign it as well, then that round is in the books for good. No going back.

No, because that's not a responsibility of the rules official, nor should it be: they can't see everything every player (and their caddie) is doing.

You're all proposing solutions to something that isn't actually a problem.

Golf "looks bad" today, but that's because of Lexi's actions.

[sacm3bill]

10 minutes ago, iacas said:

36 minutes ago, sacm3bill said:

I agree with this too.  The scorecard was only incorrect because of an error she had already been penalized for. Penalizing her again is double indemnity.

That's not right. She did not penalize herself, thus, her scorecard was incorrect.

I didn't say she penalized herself for the incorrect placement, my point is simply that she *was* penalized for it (by the committee in this case).  So she was penalized once for the incorrect placement, then penalized again for a scorecard that was only incorrect because of that incorrect placement.

 

[Hat]

1 minute ago, sacm3bill said:

I didn't say she penalized herself for the incorrect placement, my point is simply that she *was* penalized for it (by the committee in this case).  So she was penalized once for the incorrect placement, then penalized again for a scorecard that was only incorrect because of that incorrect placement.

 

So take two theoretical golfers. Both make the same error, and one assesses the penalty on themselves. The other, for whatever reason, submits a scorecard without the penalty included, but is later penalised by the committee.

Don't you want there to be a differentiation between these two golfers scores?

[Bballref]

Not saying if rules violation was handled rightly or wrongly but I don't know if I'd want to win that way. Not taking anything away from her but if you were Ryu and you intentionally blasted your ball into the water on the playoff hole, perhaps to show support for a fellow competitor or dislike of the rule, how would LPGA officials know if it was done on purpose? Like the commentators said on TV, the players feel for Lexi because they don't know if their turn is coming up next. More than ever, pro golf needs better policing and enforcement of the rules. 

[iacas]

5 minutes ago, sacm3bill said:

I didn't say she penalized herself for the incorrect placement, my point is simply that she *was* penalized for it (by the committee in this case).

She was penalized for it, yes.

Then she was penalized for signing an incorrect scorecard.

5 minutes ago, sacm3bill said:

So she was penalized once for the incorrect placement, then penalized again for a scorecard that was only incorrect because of that incorrect placement.

Yeah.

That doesn't render the scorecard "correct" at the time she signed it.

She breached two rules and was penalized under each.

[Golfingdad]

2 minutes ago, Hat said:

So take two theoretical golfers. Both make the same error, and one assesses the penalty on themselves. The other, for whatever reason, submits a scorecard without the penalty included, but is later penalised by the committee.

Don't you want there to be a differentiation between these two golfers scores?

I get your point, but that isn't where the cutoff is now.  It's not about self-assessing versus having somebody else assess it, it's about having it come after the round ended and the card is signed.

Take three hypothetical golfers that committed the same penalty, one assessed her own penalty, one didn't notice the violation and was assessed after the round, and one cheated on purpose but her violation was noticed before her 18 hole round was over.  A & C get two strokes, and B gets 4.

Does that still seem reasonable?

[boogielicious]

20 minutes ago, Braivo said:

I will do so in my spare time. Wait, nevermind, I use that time to post on here. 

Then that "line" should work both ways. Once that scorecard is signed, and perhaps an official should sign it as well, then that round is in the books for good. No going back. 

A marker is required to sign the card as well. So the card is counter-signed.

[Hat]

1 minute ago, Golfingdad said:

I get your point, but that isn't where the cutoff is now.  It's not about self-assessing versus having somebody else assess it, it's about having it come after the round ended and the card is signed.

Take three hypothetical golfers that committed the same penalty, one assessed her own penalty, one didn't notice the violation and was assessed after the round, and one cheated on purpose but her violation was noticed before her 18 hole round was over.  A & C get two strokes, and B gets 4.

Does that still seem reasonable?

How do we know C wasn't going to assess until she submits her scorecard? Agree she got lucky having it noticed quickly - perhaps the correct amendment to the rules is not to have any 'third party assessment' until after the round is complete - so A would get 2 strokes, B and C get 4, because the assessor checks after the scorecard is submitted, checking the integrity (and scrutiny of their own actions) of the player.

[Lihu]

5 minutes ago, Bballref said:

Not saying if rules violation was handled rightly or wrongly but I don't know if I'd want to win that way. Not taking anything away from her but if you were Ryu and you intentionally blasted your ball into the water on the playoff hole, perhaps to show support for a fellow competitor or dislike of the rule, how would LPGA officials know if it was done on purpose? Like the commentators said on TV, the players feel for Lexi because they don't know if their turn is coming up next. More than ever, pro golf needs better policing and enforcement of the rules. 

I wouldn't want to win if someone told me I violated a rule either. It goes both ways.

The player needs to make sure that they follow the rules to the letter. Pros have caddies as well, so there are two experts at golf who can insure that things go correctly. RO or referees in other sports are human too. They miss calls. It's up to the players themselves to insure they are doing everything correctly.

Yes, I feel bad for her because no matter what I'd doubt she would have missed the hole from 15". She lost 4 strokes just for something like a half and inch to an inch of "gain". It's horrible, but those are the rules.

We all have to follow them, or we're not playing golf.

[RH31]

14 minutes ago, iacas said:

There's no issue except that Lexi didn't honor her responsibility. She brain farted (or whatever).

Look, take this the best way possible, because it's how I'm saying it… don't you think there's at least a little obligation to know a bit more about the topic of discussion before weighing in?

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html

No, because that's not a responsibility of the rules official, nor should it be: they can't see everything every player (and their caddie) is doing.

You're all proposing solutions to something that isn't actually a problem.

Golf "looks bad" today, but that's because of Lexi's actions.

I only went back a couple of pages, sorry if this has already been posted.

Golf looks bad because it let someone outside of tournament jurisdiction dictate the outcome of a major championship.

Imagine how much more ridiculous the LPGA would've looked if the caller/emailer waited until Lexi was on the 18th hole??? She would've finished her round, everyone would've thought she won and ooops, hold on a sec we've just received an email.....

It's real simple just stop receiving, reacting, to any outside video information.

[Lihu]

2 minutes ago, RH31 said:

I only went back a couple of pages, sorry if this has already been posted.

Golf looks bad because it let someone outside of tournament jurisdiction dictate the outcome of a major championship.

Imagine how much more ridiculous the LPGA would've looked if the caller/emailer waited until Lexi was on the 18th hole??? She would've finished her round, everyone would've thought she won and ooops, hold on a sec we've just received an email.....

It's real simple just stop receiving, reacting, to any outside video information.

Would it have been better if she won the tournament, then this person posted on a public forum that she "cheated" to win?