Signing An Incorrect Scorecard - Should Rule Be Modernized?

[DaveP043]

On 4/5/2017 at 0:50 PM, DaveP043 said:

I think it will be interesting to see what happens in the aftermath of "Lexi-gate".  If I remember right, the reduction of the penalty regarding an incorrect card from DQ to 2 strokes for some circumstances followed pretty closely on the heels of Tiger's problem at the Masters. ........ I've already said, I don't believe that the current rule should be changed, but I wonder whether this instance of a popular player being penalized for an incorrect scorecard will prompt a new review.

Its rare that I actually get something right, so I'm going to quote myself just this once

6 minutes ago, David in FL said:

Knee jerk reaction.

Just wait for the unintended consequences that will follow when a rule is changed as a result of a single, unique circumstance.

The unintended consequence will most likely be when a popular player loses, because a competitor who SHOULD have been penalized for something caught on video is NOT penalized.  Or when a player with integrity is not penalized for something caught on video, and chooses to withdraw after the video comes to light.  Or a player is vilified as a cheater after being caught on video, but declines to withdraw.  I suppose we really should wait to hear what the new decision is before going crazy.  Tomorrow, though, we'll have something to react to.

[iacas]

Oh Christ almighty…

If this is anything like it sounds like I'm gonna be very disappointed in the ruling bodies.

Be a professional. Put the damn ball back where it was and follow (and KNOW) the Rules of the game making you wealthy.

[iacas]

http://www.barryrhodes.com/2017/04/lexi-thompson-penalised-four-strokes.html

Quoting:

"I understand that the Ruling Bodies may implement a new Decision later this week, to take immediate effect, to address the question of assessing additional penalties on players who did not know that they had incurred a penalty before returning their score card."

"The problem that may arise from this is that players (and their caddies) will not be encouraged to learn the Rules of their trade. If players, professional and amateur, do not know they have breached a Rule and so they sign their score card without the penalty, the worst that can happen is that the penalty will subsequently be added to their score if it is discovered. So might as well ignore them! Dangerous."

"By the way, I must draw your attention to the fact that 2 years ago Lexi would have been disqualified, for her breach, receiving no prize money, so the Ruling Bodies did try to limit the consequences of a player not including a penalty for a breach of the Rules, whether they knew about it, or not."

 

[DrvFrShow]

Here's an interesting thought. Since people outside the game can review video for a few days... like Thursday's round can still be reviewed even on Sunday these days... some unnoticeable transgression could be called in for review during the round and then the rules officials make the correction on the player's card. Now under current rules the player has signed an incorrect scorecard even though they believed it to be correct at the time. So if the round is still under review, why sign the scorecard? Why not wait until the tournament is over before signing your cards? That way every viewer has had their chance to phone it in and make their observations. The rules committee has had their opportunity to make their corrections. Then the players will not have signed the incorrect scorecard. 

If this were a legal document, I wouldn't sign it until all the information was finalized.

[Dannyhansen88]

I agree the players should know the rules. The only problem I have with people calling in is that the leaders get waaaay more time on the air than lets say someone 10 shots back. This makes the leaders more susceptible to getting caught infringing on the rules. 

[Wally Fairway]

On ‎4‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 6:55 PM, iacas said:

Oh Christ almighty…

If this is anything like it sounds like I'm gonna be very disappointed in the ruling bodies.

Be a professional....and KNOW the Rules of the game making you wealthy.

You mean like reading the rules sheets posted at every event?
Everyone talks about DJ last year, but lest we forget as Admiral Ackbar once said

[iacas]

9 hours ago, DrvFrShow said:

Here's an interesting thought. Since people outside the game can review video for a few days... like Thursday's round can still be reviewed even on Sunday these days... some unnoticeable transgression could be called in for review during the round and then the rules officials make the correction on the player's card. Now under current rules the player has signed an incorrect scorecard even though they believed it to be correct at the time. So if the round is still under review, why sign the scorecard? Why not wait until the tournament is over before signing your cards? That way every viewer has had their chance to phone it in and make their observations. The rules committee has had their opportunity to make their corrections. Then the players will not have signed the incorrect scorecard. 

If this were a legal document, I wouldn't sign it until all the information was finalized.

Read up on Rule 6-6b, Julia.

I'll save you the time of typing "usga.org" into your browser and navigating to http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-06,6-6 .

6-6. Scoring in Stroke Play 

a. Recording Scores 

After each hole the marker should check the score with the competitor and record it. On completion of the round the marker must sign the score card and hand it to the competitor. If more than one marker records the scores, each must sign for the part for which he is responsible. 

b. Signing and Returning Score Card 

After completion of the round, the competitor should check his score for each hole and settle any doubtful points with the Committee. He must ensure that the marker or markers have signed the score card, sign the score card himself and return it to the Committee as soon as possible. 

Penalty for Breach of Rule 6-6b: 

Disqualification.

---

Julia, look, again… this "viewers watching previous rounds and calling in":

• doesn't happen very often.
• can ONLY happen if a player fails to follow the rules.

You're basically trying to concoct ways for criminals (I'm making an analogy) to get out of their charges on technicalities, when we all know they did something illegal.

[Fourputt]

On 4/25/2017 at 11:59 PM, Dannyhansen88 said:

I agree the players should know the rules. The only problem I have with people calling in is that the leaders get waaaay more time on the air than lets say someone 10 shots back. This makes the leaders more susceptible to getting caught infringing on the rules. 

But on the other hand, the actions taken by those in contention have a much greater effect on the outcome of the tournament than breaches made by the ones 10 strokes back.  In that case, I don't see any real issue in scrutinizing those players more closely. 

[Vinsk]

How often on tour does an improper score get turned in and not caught? I think it's an asinine rule altogether. Human error that has nothing to do with the actual play of the game.  Fix the error and move on.

[iacas]

9 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

How often on tour does an improper score get turned in and not caught? I think it's an asinine rule altogether. Human error that has nothing to do with the actual play of the game.  Fix the error and move on.

You can't be serious.

If that was the rule - that you just got to fix your scorecard at any point for "human error," - why should a player ever write down a bogey? Just write down a par. Or a birdie! If someone catches them, well, human error. Just fix it. Sorry, and thank you.

[Vinsk]

Really? You think a tour player would really do that? Come on Erik. These people out there are not hardened criminals looking for a way to cheat the game. Lexi signed an incorrect scorecard that at the time was completely correct...oh wait....sorry....we gave you a penalty you didn't know about....how could you have been so careless to sign your card without checking it. Oh wait ...you did but the penalty came later...so sorry...2 more strokes. It's silly Erik. Why not just sign each card only after the tournament is over? If people can call in and change a player's round...then why should players sign a card before the tournament is completed?

Anna could never had known her club touched the sand. IMPOSSIBLE. No human eye on the course saw it or could've seen it. Had that call been made the next day (if it happened on earlier round) then she would've been assessed  2 stroke penalty for signing wrong card. That's stupid. Period.

[Hardluckster]

Just now, Vinsk said:

Really? You think a tour player would really do that? Come on Erik. These people out there are not hardened criminals looking for a way to cheat the game. Lexi signed an incorrect scorecard that at the time was completely correct...oh wait....sorry....we gave you a penalty you didn't know about....how could you have been so careless to sign your card without checking it. Oh wait ...you did but the penalty came later...so sorry...2 more strokes. It's silly Erik. Why not just sign each card only after the tournament is over? If people can call in and change a player's round...then why should players sign a card before the tournament is completed?

The standard is not whether Lexi knew, but whether she "should have known".  She was assessed the first 2 stroke penalty because she should have known that her replacement of the golf ball was incorrect.  Most people have no problem with this penalty, in fact it seems that most people agree with it.

If she "should have known" that the 2 stroke penalty was correct, then she should have known it before she signed the card, thus making the additional 2 stroke penalty for incorrect scorecard a warranted penalty.

If you agree with the first penalty, then the second is undeniable.

[Vinsk]

So should've Anna known her club barely grazed a few grains of sand on her backswing? Well too bad...our HD  camera caught it....so that card you signed is wrong. Sorry...2 stroke penalty for not knowing what no human in the world could've known happened...without the use of our HD camera.

With the use of call ins and slow-mo....nobody is safe to sign a card until the tournament is over. Not because of wrong INTENTIONS...but because of things that HAPPEN in a game so particular with micrometers and grains of sand.

Edited April 30, 2017 by Vinsk

[Hardluckster]

Apples and oranges.  Two separate incidents.  

[Vinsk]

But the outcome would be the same. So no. Anna would've gotten a penalty had she signed her card then the next day she was informed of the penalty.

[RandallT]

17 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

So should've Anna known her club barely grazed a few grains of sand on her backswing? Well too bad...our HD  camera caught it....so that card you signed is wrong. Sorry...2 stroke penalty for not knowing what no human in the world could've known happened...without the use of our HD camera.

With the use of call ins and slow-mo....nobody is safe to sign a card until the tournament is over. Not because of wrong INTENTIONS...but because of things that HAPPEN in a game so particular with micrometers and grains of sand.

Read more  

You've seen this, right?

The newly expanded "naked eye" standard should handle Anna's situation. 

Edited April 30, 2017 by RandallT
Changed released to expanded

[Hardluckster]

Anna's situation would not have warranted the additional two stroke penalty due to the new Decision 34-3/10.

**You beat me to it, RandallT! 

Edited April 30, 2017 by Hardluckster

[iacas]

27 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

Really? You think a tour player would really do that? Come on Erik. These people out there are not hardened criminals looking for a way to cheat the game.

Two things for you:

1. http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/survey-finds-more-half-pga-tour-caddies-have-witnessed-cheating
2. The Rules of Golf apply to everyone. If you don't think John Doe might try to cheat in the weekly medal play tournament, or the early rounds of the Club Championship, you've got another thing coming.

Of course there has to be a penalty for signing an incorrect scorecard.

29 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

Lexi signed an incorrect scorecard that at the time was completely correct

@Vinsk, seriously, you're literally wrong on that one. Her scorecard was incorrect when she signed it. She earned the penalty when she incurred it, not when she was told about it.

29 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

It's silly Erik. Why not just sign each card only after the tournament is over?

Asked and answered - your markers may have gone home, you have to make a cut and groupings, etc. The scorecard is your affirmation that you've played the game under the rules and are signing your name to the score you shot.

29 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

If people can call in and change a player's round...then why should players sign a card before the tournament is completed?

People can't call in and "change" a player's round. A player can fail to uphold their responsibility, and a rules committee can be notified of it, at which point they must do what the player failed to do.

29 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

Anna could never had known her club touched the sand. IMPOSSIBLE. No human eye on the course saw it or could've seen it. Had that call been made the next day (if it happened on earlier round) then she would've been assessed  2 stroke penalty for signing wrong card. That's stupid. Period.

No, she wouldn't have - the tournament would have been over.

And since it's not visible to the naked eye, that will no longer be a penalty.

9 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

So should've Anna known her club barely grazed a few grains of sand on her backswing? Well too bad...our HD  camera caught it....so that card you signed is wrong. Sorry...2 stroke penalty for not knowing what no human in the world could've known happened...without the use of our HD camera.

Again…

1. No longer a penalty.
2. Given the rules at the time, she should've hovered her club more than, oh wait, she didn't hover her club above the sand.

9 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

With the use of call ins and slow-mo....nobody is safe to sign a card until the tournament is over.

GOOD!!!! Why should anyone be "safe" from BREACHING THE RULES?

9 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

Not because of wrong INTENTIONS...but because of things that HAPPEN in a game so particular with micrometers and grains of sand.

Intentions don't matter so much. Actions do.