Forget about wrist hinge

[Ned_the_tortoise]

I was just reading the little red book and the wrist hinge was mentioned as something that should not be sought but allowed to happen naturally. I tried to do this myself, I took the club back on plane and just let my arms and body continue to rotate without actively hinging my wrists. I am pleased to report that the overswing I have been fighting for years has gone and my club head now sits perfectly square to as the top of the back swing ! I now think that actively hinging the wrists is a bit of a red herring, it will occur naturally when you make a back swing but if you try and force it, what feels like good wrist hinge is actually you losing control of the club.

Anyone have any views on this? 

[Ernest Jones]

1 hour ago, Ned_the_tortoise said:

I was just reading the little red book and the wrist hinge was mentioned as something that should not be sought but allowed to happen naturally. I tried to do this myself, I took the club back on plane and just let my arms and body continue to rotate without actively hinging my wrists. I am pleased to report that the overswing I have been fighting for years has gone and my club head now sits perfectly square to as the top of the back swing ! I now think that actively hinging the wrists is a bit of a red herring, it will occur naturally when you make a back swing but if you try and force it, what feels like good wrist hinge is actually you losing control of the club.

Anyone have any views on this? 

Some of my best golf has been played when it feels like neither my elbows, nor my wrists break. Of course, video shows that both break, but I'll be damned if it doesn't feel like everything stays straight and extended all the way back. The moment it feels like they have to break, I stop my backswing and transition immediately. 

In my mind it looks ridiculous, but on camera, it just looks like a nice and controlled, tidy backswing. 

[Ned_the_tortoise]

Exactly my point Ernest, it feels like my arms are dead straight and there is little/no wrist hinge, but when I look at the video the wrist hinge is perfect..... just another example of the difference between what we feel and what we do which makes golf such a perplexing game

[Marty2019]

1 hour ago, Ned_the_tortoise said:

I was just reading the little red book and the wrist hinge was mentioned as something that should not be sought but allowed to happen naturally. I tried to do this myself, I took the club back on plane and just let my arms and body continue to rotate without actively hinging my wrists. I am pleased to report that the overswing I have been fighting for years has gone and my club head now sits perfectly square to as the top of the back swing ! I now think that actively hinging the wrists is a bit of a red herring, it will occur naturally when you make a back swing but if you try and force it, what feels like good wrist hinge is actually you losing control of the club.

Anyone have any views on this? 

I take the opposite approach.    If I take the club back with a wide arc, and allow my wrists to hinge naturally, then things tend to get out of control at the top of the backswing and the club just keeps on going back back back until it's all loose and out of control.  I find that if I start my backswing by hinging my wrists, that tends to cure my overswing.   By doing an early wrist hinge, then all I have to do is rotate my shoulders back, and that is much easier to control.  

That's my current approach, subject to change. 

[Ned_the_tortoise]

1 minute ago, Marty2019 said:

I take the opposite approach.    If I take the club back with a wide arc, and allow my wrists to hinge naturally, then things tend to get out of control at the top of the backswing and the club just keeps on going back back back until it's all loose and out of control.  I find that if I start my backswing by hinging my wrists, that tends to cure my overswing.   By doing an early wrist hinge, then all I have to do is rotate my shoulders back, and that is much easier to control.  

That's my current approach, subject to change. 

Yeah, I can see how that would make sense. I think that the danger lies in trying to incorporate wrist hinge late in the back swing, that is when it gets out of control, by doing it early it is out the way and you dont have to worry about it at the top of the swing. 

My only problem with doing it early in the swing is that I tend to struggle to stay on plane as the wrist hinge feels like it can be done at various speeds and angles which all give slightly different outcomes.

[Ernest Jones]

7 minutes ago, Ned_the_tortoise said:

Exactly my point Ernest, it feels like my arms are dead straight and there is little/no wrist hinge, but when I look at the video the wrist hinge is perfect..... just another example of the difference between what we feel and what we do which makes golf such a perplexing game

 

5 minutes ago, Marty2019 said:

I take the opposite approach.    If I take the club back with a wide arc, and allow my wrists to hinge naturally, then things tend to get out of control at the top of the backswing and the club just keeps on going back back back until it's all loose and out of control.  I find that if I start my backswing by hinging my wrists, that tends to cure my overswing.   By doing an early wrist hinge, then all I have to do is rotate my shoulders back, and that is much easier to control.  

That's my current approach, subject to change. 

 

Just now, Ned_the_tortoise said:

Yeah, I can see how that would make sense. I think that the danger lies in trying to incorporate wrist hinge late in the back swing, that is when it gets out of control, by doing it early it is out the way and you dont have to worry about it at the top of the swing. 

My only problem with doing it early in the swing is that I tend to struggle to stay on plane as the wrist hinge feels like it can be done at various speeds and angles which all give slightly different outcomes.

Which is why it's SO important to  understand that FEEL isn't REAL, and what may seem to be a miracle breakthrough to one player may be a complete disaster to another. What matters is what you're DOING not what you're FEELING. 

Use caution. 

[Marty2019]

3 hours ago, Ned_the_tortoise said:

Yeah, I can see how that would make sense. I think that the danger lies in trying to incorporate wrist hinge late in the back swing, that is when it gets out of control, by doing it early it is out the way and you dont have to worry about it at the top of the swing. 

My only problem with doing it early in the swing is that I tend to struggle to stay on plane as the wrist hinge feels like it can be done at various speeds and angles which all give slightly different outcomes.

I have to add, though, that I'm doing the early wrist set with my irons, not with my driver.  With my driver, I'm just raring back and smashing it, which no swing thought about wrist hinge.   It's a very long, almost out of control backswing.   It seems to work pretty well lately.  

This is really what started me doing an early wrist set with my irons: 

My tendency is to cast the club and hit it fat, and actually doing this on the course cures that. 

I think in my case, when I do a late wrist hinge, my thought is too much on where the club head is, to the point where late in the wrist hinge, my hands loosen to allow the club head to go even farther back.   That produces a disastrous swing for me, since my first move on the down swing is to re-tighten my hands, which leads to casting the club.  One time, I tried doing a late wrist hinge but keeping a firmer grip, and that seemed to help a lot. 

[Ned_the_tortoise]

8 minutes ago, Marty2019 said:

I have to add, though, that I'm doing the early wrist set with my irons, not with my driver.  With my driver, I'm just raring back and smashing it, which no swing thought about wrist hinge.   It's a very long, almost out of control backswing.   It seems to work pretty well lately.  

This is really what started me doing an early wrist set with my irons: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKHCGNT-hPw

My tendency is to cast the club and hit it fat, and actually doing this on the course cures that. 

I think in my case, when I do a late wrist hinge, my thought is too much on where the club head is, to the point where late in the wrist hinge, my hands loosen to allow the club head to go even farther back.   That produces a disastrous swing for me, since my first move on the down swing it to re-tighten my hands, which leads to casting the club.  One time, I tried doing a late wrist hinge but keeping a firmer grip, and that seemed to help a lot. 

My feeling is that keeping loose wrists is important to maximize wrist hinge on the DOWNSWING. This was explained in the impact zone book, when your arms start to drop, if you keep loose wrists then you will increase the wrist hinge and lag, for me this led to powerful strikes, increased my distance and I think would eliminate casting.

[Gunther]

It's an interesting game, golf.  Just the opposite for me.  I spent a year and a half not able to hit my driver out of my shadow.  Could not figure out why.  One day about 3 or 4 months ago it just sort of dawned on me that I somehow had lost the wrist cock that always had been so natural in my take-away. 

Since I've reimplemented the hinge with all full shots, my ball striking has been terrific, driving the ball long again, compressing irons more consistently and scoring better.  

Cannot hinge and hold on pitches or chips though, gotta keep the left wrist straight for those types of shots.  Crazy game we play, lots of ways to get it done.

[cipher]

1 hour ago, Ernest Jones said:

Which is why it's SO important to  understand that FEEL isn't REAL, and what may seem to be a miracle breakthrough to one player may be a complete disaster to another. What matters is what you're DOING not what you're FEELING. 

Use caution. 

I agree completely with this. It is always best to work with someone who is able to identify and prioritized what you should be working on as well.  There may be things that we personally need to work on which may be very bad for someone else to work on.  I have not been able to work on much of anything for two years due to injury, but the things that I was working on last were pieces that if a guy who struggles slicing the ball were to try and do, it would be very bad for him.

[Groucho Valentine]

I think you have it. Ive never actively hinged. It just seems to happen on its own. Trust your body to do things right. 

[span3636]

I agree that focusing on the hinging and for that matter any other little mechanical thing is a mistake. The golf swing should be taught as a whole move, not all these parts like the way it's taught now days.

[alfriday]

1 hour ago, span3636 said:

I agree that focusing on the hinging and for that matter any other little mechanical thing is a mistake. The golf swing should be taught as a whole move, not all these parts like the way it's taught now days.

This is why I really like the teaching method of Shawn Clement on Youtube.  

[Jack Watson]

I like SOME of Clements stuff.  He's got the right idea with the swinging motion imo which is fundamental.

Comparing him to someone like Dana D would be like comparing apples to calculus exams.

If you like Clements Ron Sisson has a unique perspective also,  doesn't get much play though because people like all the minutiae.

i think people tend to think anytime they take a club and try to strike a ball they are swinging.

Thats the trouble.

Edited May 10, 2017 by Jack Watson

[gregsandiego]

12 hours ago, alfriday said:

This is why I really like the teaching method of Shawn Clement on Youtube.  

Is he the contrarian that says things like:

start downswing with a cast

try swinging without shoulder turn?

EDIT:
Never mind. The contrarian guy is this one:

 

http://montescheinblum.com/blog/2013/10/27/the-no-turn-cast-drill/

Edited May 10, 2017 by gregsandiego

[TN94z]

22 hours ago, span3636 said:

I agree that focusing on the hinging and for that matter any other little mechanical thing is a mistake. The golf swing should be taught as a whole move, not all these parts like the way it's taught now days.

Even then, I believe you still have to break it down into smaller sections to have the player figure out what "feels" they need to get the desired "real" result.

[Jack Watson]

The thing to remember is when we swing we are creating forces that act on us.  I think there's value in practicing dynamically the whole motion because we get a feel of the forces we create.

Its one thing to go slo mo and place a club in a position and it's another to pass through the same position in a swing at speed when the dynamics are acting on us.

Everyone reacts to the forces a little different.

My sister for example had never swung a club and I showed her what the swinging motion is and by sheer luck her first time she lucked into a few square six irons.  She couldn't believe it!  She was stoked!  And...subsequently she swung even harder trying to see how far it would go and of course looking foolish.  She was goin front foot off the ground on the bs lol tryin to crush it.  IMO straight beginners need constant supervision.  This would prevent them ingraining a bad swingpath trying to smash it into the next county!

The thing that's cool was I told her very little and before going john daly on it she was making a nice swing.  It was ten to fifteen minutes of instruction on my lawn before we went.

i didn't bother her with long dissertations on details...she's not serious about golf!  She has no desire to play in a league.  But her first time on the range she was able to make a swinging motion and she told me later she had a ton of fun trying to see how far the ball would go.

In the online world people are very specific and detail oriented about a lot of swinging mechanics that in many cases happen not because the player has thought and learned what supination or ulnar deviation or right shoulder external rotation are and then because of their superior intelligence and analytical skills methodically applied them to their swing,  no.

In many cases these movements happen because of simply making a swinging motion with the clubhead in a good position relative to your body and the ball target situation.

Now,  I am not saying working piecemeal is bad at all.   I just think all work on mechanics should be balanced with dynamic work.

If you google a few times looking for some first time golfers developing pretty decent motions in a short time you can find it.

You can also find golfers like Ben Hogan who seemed to place a large emphasis on slow motion training.  There's devotees of every discipline.

For myself I don't get much out of looking in a mirror putting a golf club in a position.  I did that when I was maybe twelve and all I had to go on was grandpas golf magazines.

For myself the dynamic approach induces the least analysis and provides the biggest benefit resultswise.  

Getting something technical to happen that you want can come from a very simple idea.

For me this way is best I know for myself I cannot think a swing.

 

 

[Jack Watson]

Re wrist hinge?  I don't even know what I do.  Don't think about it.