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Hank Haney questions Bernhard Langer's Putting


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1 hour ago, krupa said:

Give it time.  When a top professional does this and loses a major because of it, they'll change the rule for that too.  

Ummm, isn't that exactly what DJ did at Whistling Straits? They didn't change a rule because of it.

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2 hours ago, tristanhilton85 said:

Ummm, isn't that exactly what DJ did at Whistling Straits? They didn't change a rule because of it.

 I don't remember, but they did create a new local rule removing the penalty if a player accidentally moves his ball on the green - after DJ maybe did just that.  And they did change their TV viewer-call-in guidelines after the Lexi incident.  Those are the incidents I was thinking of in my other post.

 

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33 minutes ago, krupa said:

 I don't remember, but they did create a new local rule removing the penalty if a player accidentally moves his ball on the green - after DJ maybe did just that.  And they did change their TV viewer-call-in guidelines after the Lexi incident.  Those are the incidents I was thinking of in my other post.

They didn't really change the TV viewer-call-in guidelines. They just said you couldn't penalize someone if you couldn't see it with the naked eye. Lexi would still have been penalized.

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3 hours ago, tristanhilton85 said:

Ummm, isn't that exactly what DJ did at Whistling Straits? They didn't change a rule because of it.

Anna Nordqvist as well.  In a playoff of a major even..

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http://www.golfchannel.com/news/golf-central-blog/langer-mccarron-usga-respond-chamblee-criticism/

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Langer: “During my 45-year career as a professional golfer, I have called penalties on myself. I believe in honesty and integrity, and I could not live with myself if I broke a rule and did not incur the penalty. I’m certain that I am not anchoring the putter and that my putting stroke is not violating the Rules of Golf. On several occasions, I have been in contact with the USGA and rules officials on the PGA Tour and PGA Tour Champions, and each time I have been assured that my putting stroke is within the Rules of Golf. I will remain open and honest with rules officials and the governing bodies, and I will continue to play with the same integrity that I’ve displayed throughout my career.

McCarron: “I have putted with a long putter since 1991 – over half my life – and my putting stroke has not been anchored since the end of the 2015 season. I have logged more than 1,500 hours practicing without anchoring my putter, and the more I practice, the better I get. I’d like to emphatically say that I do not anchor my hand, arm or club against my body during my putting stroke. I have worked with the USGA and PGA Tour Champions rules officials to ensure that I am within the Rules of Golf, and I have extended many invitations to demonstrate and teach people how to use a long putter without anchoring. I have never competed dishonestly because I have the utmost respect for the game of golf, and I will continue to represent myself and the sport to the best of my ability."

USGA: Over the last two years, the USGA has worked with the PGA Tour Champions and other professional tours to support education and adoption of Rule 14-1b.  We are confident that Rule has been applied fairly and consistently and have seen no evidence of a player breaching the Rule, which does not prohibit a hand or club to touch a player’s clothing in making a stroke. Integrity is at the heart of the Rules and how the game is played worldwide, and this essential value has made the game enjoyable for all golfers.  We will continue to work with our partners at The R&A to listen and review all of golf’s Rules, with an eye on making them easier to understand and apply.”

 

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25 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Unfortunately that means nothing. Of course BL is gonna say that. And when the video clearly shows he's more than 'touching his shirt' he just says, "oh well I didn't mean to do that, it wasn't my intention." Ok no problem ...no penalty. Hogwash.

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"I will continue to play with the same integrity that I’ve displayed throughout my career." -- Bernhard Langer

So the problem might be deeper than an anchored stroke?

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Possibly. But BL is wrong when he keeps saying he's 'discussed the issue and is found to be completely legitimate.' Ok, when? He can stand there and show them a million times that he's within the rules. Just like Lexi could show the USGA she properly marks her ball a million times correctly. But....not that time. There's a reason BL does an illegal practice stroke and he's being ridiculous if he thinks it's impossible that at times he's anchoring. 

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On 7/7/2017 at 8:26 PM, Golfingdad said:

1,500 hours practicing his putting in the past year and a half? That's about 2 hours and 45 minutes every day. Wow.

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1 minute ago, DeadMan said:

1,500 hours practicing his putting in the past year and a half? That's about 2 hours and 45 minutes every day. Wow.

Yeah...and yet he still has to use an anchored (illegal) practice stroke...

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I think  Bernard would be wise to just use a conventional lenght putter to remove all doubt and question.  However,  the USGA is standing behind him that he is not breaking the rules. 

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On 7/6/2017 at 6:33 AM, MRR said:

Absolutely.  Saying "it was accidental" should be enough to give one the benefit of the doubt for the first two times.  After that, you've been on notice that you are doing it incorrectly.

Part of the issue is that enforcement has been ignored for so long that now some people think it's "unfair" to enforce it.

This is a horrible outcome of something that looks a lot like Decision by Committee.  There was probably a reason that sounded really good a the time to not ban them outright.  Now that legal strokes and enforcement has proven difficult, they should readdress the issue.

There was no reason to ban the club if there was a reasonable way to limit the way they are used.

On 7/6/2017 at 7:31 AM, iacas said:

I disagree. They didn't want to limit the equipment. They wanted to limit the method of use.

Exactly!

On 7/6/2017 at 7:50 AM, MrDC said:

He may not be placing his left hand against his chest, but his arm is firmly in place, that's anchoring, they'll probably redefine the rule to stop this soon.

But there's a simple solution- just ban the broomstick, it's not a complaint club IMO and would never consider using one despite the fact that it's legal, there's a distinct advantage there and it's nice to know so many in the game have the integrity to not use one knowing it could help their putting game. Bernard is proof it works.

Make the maximum putter length something like 40", problem solved.
 

There is n reason to ban it, the Tour simply needs the balls enforce the rule as it's intended, no matter who is using it.  The fact that it's one of the stars who is abusing the rule should actually be an incentive for them to show that the integrity of the game is more important to them than any individual player. 

On 7/6/2017 at 8:07 AM, MRR said:

From day one, it sounded to me like they want the equipment to just disappear, but they didn't want to be the ones to do it.  So, instead, they placed a lot of restrictions on how a long putter can be used in the hopes that players would just stop using them.

Over the course of many years, the rules have banned certain clubs, and they have banned certain methods of play.  They still state clearly that you cannot scoop, spoon or scrape the club in making a stroke, and they have in the past banned clubs designed and intended to be used in a prohibited manner.  In my opinion, this is one of those cases where they tried to appease the critics left over from the wedge groove controversy and not force players to trash the clubs.  

In hindsight, I think that they probably should have treated this problem in the same way as they did with wedges, and grandfathered the long putter in while still imposing the new stroke limitations, but also build in an expiration date on the equipment itself.  Doing so would have sent a clearer message that putters designed to be anchored were not acceptable, and anchoring in any way was not going to be tolerated.  It would have told the players using those putters that they would be better employed by expending their energies in working out an equipment solution during the grace period, not by finding a way to cheat the rule.

Edited by Fourputt

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39 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

There was no reason to ban the club if there was a reasonable way to limit the way they are used.

While true, the path to enforcement of this rule is still subject to the vagueness of "intent".  Compound that with empirical evidence that can somehow be taken either way and you have a rule without any teeth.

So, while I agree with your statement, my opinion is that the application of the stated rule, especially in BL's case, shows that the attempt to "limit the way they are used" has been proven to not be "reasonable".  On several occasions, BL appears to be making an illegal swing.

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31 minutes ago, MRR said:

So, while I agree with your statement, my opinion is that the application of the stated rule, especially in BL's case, shows that the attempt to "limit the way they are used" has been proven to not be "reasonable".  On several occasions, BL appears to be making an illegal swing.

That's why my solution would have included the scheduled prohibition of a putter designed to be use with an anchored stroke.  Most players wouldn't have wasted the time in trying to figure out a cheat when the club would be banned in a few years anyway.

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34 minutes ago, MRR said:

While true, the path to enforcement of this rule is still subject to the vagueness of "intent".  Compound that with empirical evidence that can somehow be taken either way and you have a rule without any teeth.

So, while I agree with your statement, my opinion is that the application of the stated rule, especially in BL's case, shows that the attempt to "limit the way they are used" has been proven to not be "reasonable".  On several occasions, BL appears to be making an illegal swing.

Consider, though, that if they went the route of banning the club, there are still complications that would arise.  Somebody like Brian Harmon, who's 5-4 or whatever, could take the longest club allowed and a stance like Michelle Wei had recently and anchor, whereas a guy who is 6-6 or something might be uncomfortable putting with a conventional stroke with the longest allowable putter, solely due to his height.

Banning the method seems to apply more equitably to everybody than would banning a specific length club.

Edited by Golfingdad
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(edited)
14 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Banning the method seems to apply more equitably to everybody than would banning a specific length club.

Agree. Although it appears this is under scrutiny as well. Enforcement would be cumbersome, but integrity would certainly make it easier if the USGA simply said, "The putter may not, from rested on a level surface, extend beyond a player's navel from bottom of putter head to end of grip."

But really, these guys are professionals and I believe have pretty good careers. Learn to use a conventional putter for crying out loud! LOL.

Edited by Vinsk

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1 hour ago, Vinsk said:

Agree. Although it appears this is under scrutiny as well. Enforcement would be cumbersome, but integrity would certainly make it easier if the USGA simply said, "The putter may not, from rested on a level surface, extend beyond a player's navel from bottom of putter head to end of grip."

But really, these guys are professionals and I believe have pretty good careers. Learn to use a conventional putter for crying out loud! LOL.

Yeah.  Or something else that just popped into my head ... why can't they be a little more strict on the grip?  For example, why not just expand the current rule to say something like your hands must be adjacent to each other on the club, or something like that?

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It would be helpful if some skilled photographer or videographer could produce a close HD vid of BL anchoring, show it to the USGA and state if it's happened this time, chances are it's happening others. I'm just annoyed at how BL is responding to this. He thinks because he demonstrated a legal stroke it's a done deal and anybody who questions it doesn't know what they're talking about. Really? What a pompous dope.

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