Provisional or Drop for a Water Hazard

[JonMA1]

When my third shot to a par 5 green went right, I assumed it was in the creek. The view is obstructed by trees, but because the bank drops off abruptly, I took a drop in line from the hole to where the ball crossed. From there I took take my 5th shot. I also considered this to be a provisional in the unlikely event that the original ball might still in play.

Before I continue, was that the correct action or must a provisional only be played from the original lie?

Now the rest of the story...

I ended up holing that 80 yard shot (probably a personal best) and made the long walk around and over a bridge to retrieve my ball, very happy to mark the apparent 5 on my scorecard.

On the way back, I walked along the hazard drop-off just to make sure the ball had in fact gone into the creek. It did not. It had somehow hung up on the bank with a terrible lie. I ended up playing that original ball and marking what ended up being a 7.

A couple more things to note. This course is not marked for hazards and this was just a solo round. But for the sake of argument, can we pretend this was marked as a regular water hazard with the original shot coming to rest inside the hazard but still playable?

What were my options?

Sorry about the stupid question. I'm pretty sure I scored this correctly but am unsure about the provisional shot/penalty shot option. On most courses it's pretty obvious when your ball goes into the water and it negates the need for a provisional. In this case it didn't seem practical to walk around to look for the ball, only to walk back to take the dropped shot. 9 times out of 10 the original ball wouldn't have been found and the provisional/dropped shot would have counted.

 

[iacas]

You incorrectly put a new ball in play and played from a wrong place. I'm at The Memorial but you can look up the rules based on that bit for now.

See Rules 15 and 20 I believe.

Also look up what "virtually certain" means. You were not.

[Asheville]

Take a look at these Decisions:

26-1/3.5 Ball Dropped Under Water Hazard Rule with Knowledge or Virtual Certainty; Original Ball Then Found

26-1/3.7 Ball Dropped Under Water Hazard Rule Without It Being Known or Virtually Certain Ball in Hazard; Original Ball Then Found

26-1/4 Ball Played Under Water Hazard Rule Without Knowledge or Virtual Certainty That Original Ball in Hazard; Original Ball Then Found in Hazard

26-1/5 Ball Dropped and Played Under Water Hazard Rule; Original Ball Then Found in Hazard and Holed Out as Second Ball

[JonMA1]

Thanks for the replies.

I've looked at the decisions and am still not understanding the mistake(s)... unless it's a question of "knowledge or virtual certainty" that the ball was in a water hazard.  Or is it that I considered the second shot to be a provisional and as such should have played it from the original spot and not from the water?

Would the correct course of action have been walking to where the ball landed to determine if it was in the hazard, then deciding whether or not to play it where it lies or go back and drop with a penalty stroke?

[Buckeyebowman]

I'm not sure, but I think you drop keeping the spot where the ball LAST crossed the margin of the hazard between you and the flagstick, not where it first crossed the margin.

[JonMA1]

2 hours ago, Buckeyebowman said:

I'm not sure, but I think you drop keeping the spot where the ball LAST crossed the margin of the hazard between you and the flagstick, not where it first crossed the margin.

Thanks for the reply @Buckeyebowman.

I think that's correct, but if the ball crosses once and doesn't cross back out, wouldn't the spot it first crossed also be the spot it last crossed? My first drawing might not have been clear. Hopefully, this makes more sense.

From what I can find on the internet, the line between the point where it last crosses and the flag can extend as far back as you want (light blue dashed line) if I choose to take that option. Otherwise, I can play from the original spot, or I can play it where it lies.

 

Edit: I did some reading. Forget the provisional. Rule 27-2 states I am not allowed to play a provisional when I believe my ball is in a water hazard. And if I wasn't sure, the provisional should have been played from the original spot. The second ball was in play (assuming it was from the correct spot). Therefor, I should have counted that dropped shot and not had the option of playing the original ball.

Edited June 4, 2017 by JonMA1

[Asheville]

It's important to understand this:

Decision 26-1/1 Meaning of "Known or Virtually Certain"
 

[David in FL]

39 minutes ago, Asheville said:

It's important to understand this:

Decision 26-1/1 Meaning of "Known or Virtually Certain"
 

....and this.

PROVISIONAL BALL 

A “provisional ball” is a ball played under Rule 27-2 for a ball that may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds.

[DeadMan]

The answer to your question is that you cannot play a provisional ball if you think your ball is lost in a hazard.

(There can be a local rule allowing provisional balls for balls lost in a hazard, but that's pretty rare for a course to implement that. A competition committee would be more likely to set that local rule up.)

[Golfingdad]

Follow-up on the provisional question.  The reason why you can't play a provisional for a ball that's potentially in the hazard is because balls in hazards are still in play and you can't have a situation where you're given the option to choose between two balls in play.  (Or that's at least part of the reason as I recall)

[Hardspoon]

Now I'm confused.

So...since the original ball (3rd shot) was in the hazard, and he took a proper drop, he made a 5 on the hole, correct?

Or because he dropped without being virtually certain it was in a hazard, it was an illegal drop, even though it ended up being in? 

Does the (illegal) declaration of a "provisional" impact anything? Does it automatically invalidate that ball, making it a wrong ball? 

Edited June 5, 2017 by Hardspoon

[DeadMan]

6 minutes ago, Hardspoon said:

Now I'm confused.

So...since the original ball (3rd shot) was in the hazard, and he took a proper drop, he made a 5 on the hole, correct?

Or because he dropped without being virtually certain it was in a hazard, it was an illegal drop, even though it ended up being in? 

Does the (illegal) declaration of a "provisional" impact anything? Does it automatically invalidate that ball, making it a wrong ball? 

I believe he made a 9. 7 with the original ball, plus 2 strokes for playing a wrong ball.

[Hardspoon]

8 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

I believe he made a 9. 7 with the original ball, plus 2 strokes for playing a wrong ball.

So it was a wrong ball simply because he didn't KNOW it was in the hazard when dropping, even though it turned out to be in the hazard?

Or was it a wrong ball because of the illegal declaration of it as a "provisional"?

Edited June 5, 2017 by Hardspoon

[DeadMan]

27 minutes ago, Hardspoon said:

So it was a wrong ball simply because he didn't KNOW it was in the hazard when dropping, even though it turned out to be in the hazard?

Correct. Decisions 26-1/3.7 and 26-1/4 apply here. Since he didn't know and wasn't virtually certain the ball was in the hazard, he could not drop a ball as he did. He gets 2 strokes for playing that ball, and then the additional 7 he got for playing out with the original ball.

Hypothetically, if he hadn't found his original ball, the penalty could be disqualification if he didn't go back to where his ball was before he lost it and play from there. 

Putting the penalty strokes aside, he should have played a provisional from where his ball was before he hit it near the water. Then he could go look for his first ball greenside. Once he finds it, he can then play the provisional or proceed under the water hazard rule. 

[iacas]

9 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

Puting the penalty strokes aside, he should have played a provisional from where his ball was before he hit it near the water. Then he could go look for his first ball greenside. Once he finds it, he can then play the provisional or proceed under the water hazard rule. 

???

[JonMA1]

3 hours ago, Hardspoon said:

So it was a wrong ball simply because he didn't KNOW it was in the hazard when dropping, even though it turned out to be in the hazard?

Or was it a wrong ball because of the illegal declaration of it as a "provisional"?

I think both. The penalty is because of where I played the provisional. I could have declared a provisional (because I wasn't virtually certain) but I could not drop it where I did. 

If I understand, what I should have done is either...

1. Played a provisional from the original spot. Once the ball was found in the hazard, I could not have played the provisional. There would now be "certainty" and I could proceed under Rule 26-1 (3 options).

2. Walk to the greenside to look for the ball (no provisional). If I see the ball in the hazard proceed under 26-1. If I don't find the ball, go back to the original spot and play under Rule 27-1 (stroke and distance).

The only confusion would have come if I had never found the ball. Honestly, there wouldn't have been much doubt about it being in the abyss of the hazard, but maybe a little uncertainty is all it takes. I'll read up on it as @Ashevillesuggested.

9 strokes is fair.

[onthehunt526]

So this is my take.

Hypothetically, I hit my third shot as @JonMA1 did. Take a provisional, legally. Go up and find the original ball inside the margin, do I then proceed with my water hazard options?

[JonMA1]

2 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

So this is my take.

Hypothetically, I hit my third shot as @JonMA1 did. Take a provisional, legally. Go up and find the original ball inside the margin, do I then proceed with my water hazard options?

The experts can confirm, but I believe that's correct.