The Single Most Important Angle(s) in Golf

[iacas]

Occasionally I get a lesson where someone doesn't get their weight forward. They "flip" and "throw" and hit the shots you'd expect to hit: fat, thin, etc. Even their good shots are "picked" pretty cleanly without a descending AoA, and they often play the ball farther back in their stance than better players do.

I'd like to think I'm pretty good about fixing this. It takes some time, and the students have to practice - of course - but by doing things differently and knowing the priority and order of things, they can work away from this.

But occasionally - really rarely - you get a golfer who just cannot stop throwing the trail wrist, throwing the clubhead at the ball. I follow the "5 S" principles and simplify, shorten, and slow down. We'll try to hit shots only 50 yards. Then 30. Then 20 (which the student will still often hit 50) yards. Sometimes I've had to ask someone to chip the ball ten feet and, even if they miss the golf ball (they don't, but I tell them this to emphasize the main point), to do everything in their power to retain some of the trail wrist angle.

And rarely, occasionally… they can't do that. They can't hit a ten-foot chip without throwing out the trail wrist angle.

Rarely, occasionally, I get something like this even on a ten-foot chip:

I will admit to struggling with this type of lesson. Yes, I can put a stick in the end of the shaft and "make them" do it better. We can emphasize it so severely - to the exclusion of worrying about anything else - that they can do it 50% of the time, or 80% of the time for short chips and little punch shots that go 20 or 25 yards in the air. I'll pull out all the stops: mental pictures like "chip the ball under a chair," sharing the concept of impact/where the shaft should be at impact, the works.

But as soon as you go back to something else, or they hit the ball 50 yards with a 6-iron… THROW! FLIP!

And a little part of me thinks "you'll just never be good at golf."

If you can't hit a chip shot ten feet without throwing your wrists - even when you're thinking about it and doing all that you can do to finish like this:

then I don't know that you'll ever play great golf.

That's my current working theory, anyway. That the ability to do this - even at slow speeds for short shots - is the single most important fundamental skill in golf.

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Note: The student on the grass above can do this. He is not an example of someone who can't do it, but is an example of someone who wasn't doing it. He's improved.

[saevel25]

As of right now, I would have to agree. With a chip, you are giving yourself every chance to succeed at achieving that ideal impact position. If a golfer can't learn to do that consistently at that level then I don't see them ever achieving it. 

 

[boogielicious]

I have to agree and I've put it to practice. I developed a flip over the last season and a half and am working on it with my Evolvr instructor Stephan. I also got a bit of advice from @iacas when I posted a video in my Member Swing thread. Erik advised starting with chips and maintaining the rear wrist angle, essentially not letting the club overtake the hands.

So now, I start most of my practices with chips, even with the driver. It also acts as a great warm up for my ailing body!

It made me realize that my right hand was also too active in the downswing. So now I focus on feeling no right hand activity at the beginning of the downswing and letting my body and arms make the transition.

[Vinsk]

We all hear and read that the holy grail of a golf swing is impact, which makes sense. You can do a bs with so many variations but as long as you are in a good position at impact, you can obtain good ball striking. So I have to agree. I still struggle with this just not as often. I've always contributed it to the fact that although I  throw, bat, bowl and play golf left handed, I write, throw a frisbee and played tennis/ping pong right handed. No idea if this accounts for anything but I don't think I have the 'dominant' hand sensation most people have because I do several fine motor and gross motor skills with different hands. 

[iacas]

To be clear… or at least clearer: I'm not suggesting you can't hit a good shot now and then. Just that if you cannot hit a short chip shot like this while controlling your body, you're not going to become a low single digits player. I just don't see it in the cards for you.

I'm not suggesting that in a full swing you maintain that angle for a long period of time, and I'm definitely not suggesting you actively maintain the angle.

Just that if you lack the body control to make yourself maintain it - or your "throw the clubhead at the ball impulse" is so strong - on even a short chip shot, you're destined to peak at a high single digit handicap or worse.

[David in FL]

I don't know about the "most important angle", but I think that anyone who, given good instruction, can't hit a proper chip, simply doesn't have the basic athleticism necessary to play the game well.  

[Jack Watson]

TBH I have a hard time comprehending the idea that a person would flip on short chips.  A flip on a short chip to me does not qualify as a swinging motion.  I imagine a person doing this might be extremely difficult to teach.

Id go all Ernest Jones and have them swing a weight on a string to try to help.  Seems like a flip on a chip would be slack in the string.

Beyond that in the back of my mind I might be thinking the person lacks coordination.

Id like to see a video of a person flipping on a basic chip

Edited July 15, 2017 by Jack Watson

[iacas]

57 minutes ago, David in FL said:

I don't know about the "most important angle"…

Find another that's more important, then. I'm all ears.

35 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

TBH I have a hard time comprehending the idea that a person would flip on short chips.  A flip on a short chip to me does not qualify as a swinging motion.  I imagine a person doing this might be extremely difficult to teach.

Id go all Ernest Jones and have them swing a weight on a string to try to help.  Seems like a flip on a chip would be slack in the string.

You can flip with a weight on a string. Hell, you could swing a weight on a string back and forth by JUST flexing and extending your wrist.

[David in FL]

No, what I meant was that I don't know enough about swing mechanics to even comment on that.  

I agree though, if you can't control your body well enough to get something that basic right, with instruction, you'll probably never play well.  

[iacas]

20 minutes ago, David in FL said:

No, what I meant was that I don't know enough about swing mechanics to even comment on that.  

I agree though, if you can't control your body well enough to get something that basic right, with instruction, you'll probably never play well.  

Yes, that's what I'm thinking.

This is a working theory. I'm not opposed to being shown to be wrong. I'm kinda hoping that happens, actually… but I've been unable, in a few spare cycles over the past week or so, to come up with something more basic and/or more important.

[Jack Watson]

23 minutes ago, iacas said:

You can flip with a weight on a string. Hell, you could swing a weight on a string back and forth by JUST flexing and extending your wrist.

If you take a length of say paracord or even light rope and tie something with some decent weight to the end  ( I used three golf balls wrapped up with electrical tape because that's what I had right there in the garage) and then hold the end under the grip of a club letting the weight hang down (not to the ground) and swing back and forth keeping the  weight and clubhead in time you cannot flip.  If you flip the clubhead will not be in time with the weight and the weight will tangle up around the shaft.  If you swing you can go back and forth pretty easily and the clubhead and weight will be in time.  

 

 

[nevets88]

Maybe try asking student to drive the ball to a point 10 yards ahead but 5 feet underground? 

 

[No Mulligans]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

Just that if you lack the body control to make yourself maintain it - or your "throw the clubhead at the ball impulse" is so strong - on even a short chip shot, you're destined to peak at a high single digit handicap or worse.

When I read the original post I was thinking more about the lack of body control than the inconsistency of a flip.  With this much lack of body control, the student will struggle with many aspects of the swing.

I have a friend that is like this.  He can eliminate the flip with a short practice swing in slow motion, put a ball in front of him and it seems impossible for him to do it.  It seems completely mental.

Edited July 15, 2017 by No Mulligans

[saevel25]

The more I think about this, the more I think it's true. If you can get keys 1 and 2 down and still struggle with this then I see a low ceiling for a golfer. 

There is no way to consistently control the low point, and the club face to path while flipping at the ball. 

[Alx]

This wrist angle is dependant on how weak or strong your upper hand is. 

I don't understand why force people into these weak grips and then compensate by bowing the lead wrist to square the face which most people really can't do hence the various slices you see. It's easier to just grip it stronger with the upper hand to begin with.

I voted I disagree. 

[saevel25]

2 minutes ago, Alx said:

This wrist angle is dependant on how weak or strong your upper hand is. 

I doubt the strength of the grip matters that much to what the OP is stating. Maybe a tiny bit, but you don't see PGA Tour players with weak exceedingly bowing their hands. Heck Dustin Johnson has a very strong grip and maintains that bowed left wrist. I don't see a correlation between strength of grip and the amount of bowed wrists at impact. 

[Yukari]

While I generally agree you should not flip, I voted no because one of my playing buddy flips his wrist on chip shots and he is deadly.  He is the only one that I know of who flips his write on chip shots.

I guess he started out that way and got use to his wrist action. 

[saevel25]

2 minutes ago, Yukari said:

While I generally agree you should not flip, I voted no because one of my playing buddy flips his wrist on chip shots and he is deadly.  He is the only one that I know of who flips his write on chip shots.

I guess he started out that way and got use to his wrist action. 

I would say someone who has a flippy motion is pitching and not chipping.