How do you choose a coach?

[carri10]

Hello All.

I've recently decided to get a little more serious about this game and am looking for a coach.

I played off 18, 5 years ago, but having had two kids since, the time out on course has plummeted.  Things have come round so there is more time available and I want to get back into things.  Problem is that here in Singapore, coaching ain't cheap (nothing is!)  For a course of 10 lessons, I'm looking at 1100SG$.

I'm not against paying that sum at all - if I get quality coaching!  So my question is -

how do you go about choosing a coach?  How do I make sure I'm getting quality before laying down the 1100SG$?  Getting lessons one by one costs a lot more (160 a lesson)

Due to SG culture, there is not a strong review culture on the internet, so that didn't help me too much.

So far I gone to 2 separate guys for a lessons and submitted a video to evolvr.

First guy listens to my goals etc and then uses a iPad for video.  He took a look at my swing and decided that my left elbow chicken wings after impact.  He then got me to try to swing the club head through impact; a snap release he called it.  I got a real feel of trying to force the right hand to release.  This led to a load of pulls, which he put down to just getting my timing right.

Second guy is trackman certified.  He also listened to what my goals are and then watched my swing and then asked me if I knew what determined ball flight.  He knew the new ball flight laws - which was a good start.  He thought I flipped a little (although he doesn't like the term flipping) and got out an impact bag and had me try to push the thing forward with some half swings.  He then got me to pitch a load of balls, making sure the face stayed facing the sky for as long as possible (a foot or so past impact)

Evolvr told me to change my posture slightly to have less arch in my back.

I know a little bit about the swing, but not enough to second guess advice from a pro.  

How did you go about choosing?  For info, they must be at least 100 coaches in Singapore.  They love practicing golf here, even if they don't play so much!

Happy to provide more info......

[chilepepper]

I found one through a recommendation and it has worked out well. If getting opinions from others is not possible perhaps you could practice nearby when a lesson is going on and just listen to see if you might mesh with that instructor. Or.....trial and error until you find one 

Edited September 8, 2017 by chilepepper

[scotth]

1 hour ago, chilepepper said:

If getting opinions from others is not possible perhaps you could practice nearby when a lesson is going on and just listen to see if you might mesh with that instructor.

I think that is a good idea.  I have done that before in Austin where there are tons on instructors.  

It can be especially helpful if you get to watch/listen to the same instructor with different students.  See it the instructor is teaching the same swing to each person i.e. a method coach or works with each student on their swing and flaws.

[Vinsk]

 

[chilepepper]

I'll add this....sometimes golf courses will offer group lessons. It's another option to check out instructors without paying the full private rate

[Kalnoky]

I suggest someone who uses video & golf software, and not just iPad, so you can really sit down and see what he/she is talking about, frame by frame, and side by side your previous swings, professional golfers, or other amateurs. At least for me it was very easy to get confused by the coaching lingo and the video helped me tremendously.

Edited September 8, 2017 by Kalnoky

[iacas]

16 hours ago, carri10 said:

Evolvr told me to change my posture slightly to have less arch in my back.

If you have the dedication to practice properly on your own, evolvr is great. Stick with it.

[carri10]

On 9/8/2017 at 10:08 PM, Vinsk said:

On 9/9/2017 at 10:14 AM, iacas said:

If you have the dedication to practice properly on your own, evolvr is great. Stick with it.

I'll see if I can.  Good instruction over internet can't be a good as 1:1 good instruction though - right?

If I get someone here who is good then continuing with both 1:1 and Evolvr would be complicated - unless the 2 coaches had a discussion on what to do with me.   I don't think that level of service is available until I'm playing amateur for Singapore

 

 

 

 

On 9/8/2017 at 10:08 PM, Vinsk said:

 

That is useful, thanks

I suppose my problem is that I don't want to waste time and be led down a wrong path by choosing an instructor who doesn't really know what they are talking about.  This forum has many commenting on the general standard of tuition, I don't want to fall foul of a poor instructor.

The thing is, I know a little bit about the golf swing, but not much.  An example.  My first instructor wanted me to perform and action that, to me, felt like I was really actively releasing my right hand.  I have read that the release shouldn't be a really active thing, and that with a swing driven by the body, the "release" should happen naturally.  This same guy wants me to do this action, which he calls a "snap release" and says  that getting the timing right will be key.  That doesn't sound wonderfully repeatable to me.

I think I'll post my swing in the members swing section (iphone slo mo would do the trick?) and show the advice I've been given.  I'll let the forum critique it and that will help me choose.

sounds like a plan?

[Vinsk]

9 hours ago, carri10 said:

 

 

 

That is useful, thanks

I suppose my problem is that I don't want to waste time and be led down a wrong path by choosing an instructor who doesn't really know what they are talking about.  This forum has many commenting on the general standard of tuition, I don't want to fall foul of a poor instructor.

The thing is, I know a little bit about the golf swing, but not much.  An example.  My first instructor wanted me to perform and action that, to me, felt like I was really actively releasing my right hand.  I have read that the release shouldn't be a really active thing, and that with a swing driven by the body, the "release" should happen naturally.  This same guy wants me to do this action, which he calls a "snap release" and says  that getting the timing right will be key.  That doesn't sound wonderfully repeatable to me.

I think I'll post my swing in the members swing section (iphone slo mo would do the trick?) and show the advice I've been given.  I'll let the forum critique it and that will help me choose.

sounds like a plan?

If you're diligent about filming your swing, which I'm not, these guys here are top notch. Evolvr would do you well. I've received some instruction from @mvmac a few times and he's been better than any other instructor. Smart, quick, to the point. No nonsense guys here and you can most certainly trust them. Their instruction is based on tons of research and not just personal philosophy. 

Edited September 10, 2017 by Vinsk

[IrishAndy]

I generally have not had great luck with coaches, but have randomly found a good one.  Different things obviously work for different people, so this is just my list.  I did notice some commonality between the ones that didn't work for me and the one that is that I'll list below:

Didn't Work for Me

Very technical, heavy use of cameras/video

Largely focused on mechanics and seemingly obsessed with 'positions'.  The goal was generally to 'rearchitect' my swing in the mold of (e.g.) Tiger, who's a smidge more talented and more flexible than me...

Didn't ever seem to talk about strike quality, or where on the face I was striking the ball.  Generally couldn't 'hear' a good strike

Very motivated to get me in for the next appointment the very next week, just like my dentist and (ex) chiropractor.  I think this one's important for you, given the cost of lessons.  To me, I want a specific actionable drill or swing thought coming out of every lesson.  Then I want my own time (even if that's a month) to perfect that before I feel like I need to move on to the next thing.  That way I extract more from each lesson, make better use of the advice, and spend less.

Did Work for Me

Just watches me swing and then reacts.  Took one video on his phone in the first lesson just to be able to show me what his eye was seeing in terms of where my swing was going south

Always asks me what's working on the course and what isn't, and what I'd like to focus on next.  Example: last week was driver distance, because I was starting to his greens, but was eager to start hitting shorter approaches, as I was playing very short & safe off the tee

Generally has one or two very simple keys for me to think about to fix a certain issue or improve a certain shot type.  These 'golden nuggets' stick with me, make a distinct difference, and I can go to the range on my own and work with those basic keys to gain material improvements.  Sometimes I don't feel like I need a lesson again for a while (e.g. skipped this week) because I could hit thousands of balls just honing what I learned the last time

Doesn't push for a lesson every week unless I want one

[iacas]

8 hours ago, IrishAndy said:

Didn't Work for Me

Very technical, heavy use of cameras/video

FWIW, these don't have to go together. Nor does "use of video" have to go along with any of the other things you mentioned.

I use video in nearly every lesson. It's often more for the student than it is for me.

[mdl]

43 minutes ago, iacas said:

FWIW, these don't have to go together. Nor does "use of video" have to go along with any of the other things you mentioned.

I use video in nearly every lesson. It's often more for the student than it is for me.

I've wondered about this, in the context of old school teachers who claim never to need video.  What's the dimension along which you need video?

For example, one dimension it's easy to imagine could be the key one is that you need video more the better a player is.  With a beginner or intermediate (say, 12-20 index), you basically never need video to know the priority piece (or two).  With an intermediate+ (say, 8-12) you sometimes do, but usually not.  With an advanced or expert player (0-8 index), you may or may not be right without video, but you're definitely doing the player a disservice by not consulting it for yourself (rather than just for the player to be able to see what you're talking about).

So what's the real answer?

[iacas]

28 minutes ago, mdl said:

I've wondered about this, in the context of old school teachers who claim never to need video.  What's the dimension along which you need video?

For example, one dimension it's easy to imagine could be the key one is that you need video more the better a player is.  With a beginner or intermediate (say, 12-20 index), you basically never need video to know the priority piece (or two).  With an intermediate+ (say, 8-12) you sometimes do, but usually not.  With an advanced or expert player (0-8 index), you may or may not be right without video, but you're definitely doing the player a disservice by not consulting it for yourself (rather than just for the player to be able to see what you're talking about).

So what's the real answer?

Not really the topic for it, but video is useful for all levels.

Again, often it's more for the student than for me: they can see what they're doing, they can see when they improve or make changes, etc.

[DaveP043]

12 hours ago, iacas said:

Not really the topic for it, but video is useful for all levels.

Again, often it's more for the student than for me: they can see what they're doing, they can see when they improve or make changes, etc.

This is where I've seen the value of video.  Changes can feel very uncomfortable.  If you can look at your own video, and see that you're making the desired change, that discomfort means you're doing it right.  Without the positive feedback that video can provide, its easier to give up on a change because it simply feels wrong for a while.  To me, use of video would be a positive thing if I'm looking for an instructor.  Combined with this...

22 hours ago, IrishAndy said:

Generally has one or two very simple keys for me to think about to fix a certain issue or improve a certain shot type.  These 'golden nuggets' stick with me, make a distinct difference, and I can go to the range on my own and work with those basic keys to gain material improvements.  Sometimes I don't feel like I need a lesson again for a while (e.g. skipped this week) because I could hit thousands of balls just honing what I learned the last time

 

[billchao]

9 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

This is where I've seen the value of video.  Changes can feel very uncomfortable.  If you can look at your own video, and see that you're making the desired change, that discomfort means you're doing it right.

I agree with this. As a student, the use of video is important to me so that I can see exactly what I was doing at the beginning of the lesson and then see how the drills and feels that I am given during the lesson change the swing. It reinforces what we do during the lesson. It's a tool that helps me learn more than it helps my instructor teach.

[Jerry in DC]

In addition to the good technical questions laid out in the original article, I'd be curious about the "project plan" for improvement.  

• You have a set of inputs (my current swing, my athletic ability, my level of commitment).
• You have a process (lessons and practice)
• And we have a desired output (an improved golf swing).  

How would you organize the process to optimally achieve the intended goals?  How do you evaluate progress towards those goals?  And at what rate do you expect those goals to be achieved?  

I was in evolvr last year.  I'm out now, but I'll get back in eventually.  One of the things that I liked about the philosophy is that they have a project plan.  They don't tell us the whole plan immediately, but that's actually pat of the plan - not overloading us.  We work on one or 2 very specific things.  Get them right.  Then move on to the next one or 2 things.  We have specific goals / milestones that are far more specific than "score better" or "hit draws".  So we have a defined process and we have specific, measurable, intermediate goals. 

A lot of times on the range I'll see instructors working with a very, very new golfer- "you have to do this, you have to do that, ok this time you did that, but you also did THIS, which was a problem.  [next swing] OK you did THAT right, but this time you did this".  It's never going to work.  One or two things.  Lots of swings, until you get it right without thinking.  It's not glamorous, but it's necessary.  

In terms of how long it would take to improve - I don't think there's a right answer.  It's just a question I would ask to gauge the personality and thought process of the instructor.  See if they're pumping BS, if they're invested in my improvement, etc.

[Lihu]

On 9/8/2017 at 2:38 AM, carri10 said:

Second guy is trackman certified.  He also listened to what my goals are and then watched my swing and then asked me if I knew what determined ball flight.  He knew the new ball flight laws - which was a good start.  He thought I flipped a little (although he doesn't like the term flipping) and got out an impact bag and had me try to push the thing forward with some half swings.  He then got me to pitch a load of balls, making sure the face stayed facing the sky for as long as possible (a foot or so past impact)

Evolvr told me to change my posture slightly to have less arch in my back.

Go with the second guy for live coaching then Evolvr from then on.

[scotth]

On 9/12/2017 at 12:26 PM, DaveP043 said:

This is where I've seen the value of video.  Changes can feel very uncomfortable.  If you can look at your own video, and see that you're making the desired change, that discomfort means you're doing it right.  

I think that is a really, really important point.  For me, and I expect many people, watching on video the change starting to happen helped me stick with making the recommended changes.   

The results definitely lagged at the beginning.   Initially on the range the results were many, many sessions of painfully thin awful shots until suddenly the results were good and now some of the more consistent striking of the ball I have ever accomplished.

Edited September 15, 2017 by scotth